You Can't Keep A Violent Drunk Down

[manticle]

Lived in melbourne almost all my life and while I won't deny that alcohol and amphetamine violence definitely exists, I think the problem is overstated. I've walked down king street many, many times without being glassed or having my head punched in.

It happens. Young people have been punching each other's heads in for some time. Police and bouncers have added to that trend.

It's unnecessary and stupid and I'd like to see it end but I don't believe it's either new or massively different.

I do believe that perpetrators of violence that ends in death, disfigurement or permanent disability should cop a bit more than they seem to. Admittedly most sentencing results I read/hear about come from popular media which I trust like I trust a snail not to eat my lettuce (and I hate the 'let's castrate the bastard' crowd).

Not a fan of the 'let's lock you up because you chucked a beer can black skinned brother' philosophy either though. Also not a fan of the 'your mum sometimes drank your lunch money so beating that 6 year old to death only gets you six months jail and some lovin' " ethos. Would love to see something somewhere in the middle. Shouldn't be too hard to work out with all that education and training.

 

[marksfish]

is this all a beat up by the murdoch press?

 

[DUANNE]

jeez your balls must be hurting the way your stradling that fence manticle! been to court myself a few times on other matters and one thing you learn watching a few cases going before the just is just how soft the system really is.it seems that everyone in there is a "victim" of a bad upbringing and or drug addiction and even if its a twentieth offence they get barely more than a slap on the wrist.until the system comes down hard and starts getting seriuos about punishment the problems will only get worse. why would these poeple think twice about what what they do when all the punishment they can look forward to is a suspended sentence and some counselling.

 

[drtomc]

We talk lots about sentencing, but the criminologists have been consistently finding for decades that the threat of jail (or even execution, in jurisdictions that have not yet grown out of it) have remarkably little effect on crime rates. Prevention programs on the other hand can be enormously successful, and are much cheaper to boot! I am hugely sympathetic to the victims of this kind of senseless crime, and to their families, and I bet if it was me, I'd be calling for tougher sentences, but I would like to see more emphasis on prevention.

My wife is a primary teacher, now working in community development, and there are some pretty good programs that schools can run to help parents who struggle, and to help at-risk kids before it all goes horribly wrong. A minuscule amount of money would enable a lot more of this kind of stuff.

my 2c,
T.

 

[drtomc]

@BEERHOG, don't worry, it's about to get a whole lot worse. There has been some stuff in New Scientist recently were the accused have used brain scans to mount a defense "it's not my fault - my brain made me do it". Heaven forfend that our courts should ever accept this watering down of responsibility.

T.

 

[Sydneybrewer]

i have to say our nightlife here in sydney seems much more violent then when i lived in new york, you could go out and get sloshed any night of the week there without worrying about getting glassed. i have actually once had a chain taken to my face by some bikies in the cross for dancing with the wrong girl, not fun at all. and i used to see brawls every friday/saturday night in my younger days. so just from my experience i would say we are worse then the US and the problems are not going away any time soon.

 

[rotten]

I love the country, Fist to the head before closing is probably the worst you could anticipate around here. Not that I would know anymore. I can handle myself, but I don't get drunk in melbourne or adelaide when there 'just in case'.

 

[Nick JD]

The solution to violent crime is to take the violent and sit them down and ask them why they are so ******* angry.

When you know that you can take the anger away.

 

[DUANNE]

The solution to violent crime is to take the violent and sit them down and ask them why they are so ******* angry.

When you know that you can take the anger away.

thats it a good talking to and it will all be okay? dunno what rock youve been hiding under but its this pc ******** of not punishing the perpetrater because hes a victim to aproach is whats making things worse.ill just rob and belt a grandma today and blame it on my terrible upbringing and drug addiction,get off scott free that way.

 

[manticle]

jeez your balls must be hurting the way your stradling that fence manticle! been to court myself a few times on other matters and one thing you learn watching a few cases going before the just is just how soft the system really is.it seems that everyone in there is a "victim" of a bad upbringing and or drug addiction and even if its a twentieth offence they get barely more than a slap on the wrist.until the system comes down hard and starts getting seriuos about punishment the problems will only get worse. why would these poeple think twice about what what they do when all the punishment they can look forward to is a suspended sentence and some counselling.

Not really sitting on the fence at all.

What I'm suggesting is that the system we have here is way too soft as far as I can see.

I'm then suggesting that what I see and what is real might be different

The wrong crimes seem to get the most punishment (selling dope to your mates will probably get more jail time than beating a six month old child to death).

However I'm qualifying my understanding and observation with my actual information source. My information comes from dubious sources so I don't want to claim a fact or trend based on what I read in the herald sun.

In a nutshell - I believe violent crimes and crimes that result in permanent damage or death to another party should involve some punitive measure. While things like mental illness should be taken into account, I also believe in personal responsibility and that should be reflected in law.

A purely punitive society doesn't get anywhere and I'd hate to see a singapore 'whip for litter' attitude become the norm here. I also have no time for the 'molly coddle me because my dad was mean' thing. I do feel a lot of sympathy for people's background and the influence on their lives but I don't think it should overshadow someone else's life being ruined as a result .

Sorry if that seems like I'm sitting on a fence. I'm just not into black and white thinking but I am into thinking.

 

[argon]

What is it with all the glassings as well? Seems its not a good night for some unless you end up in a fight or glass someone. From OP seems you can do this and get off with a suspended sentence.

Yep you're right about that... at least the suspended sentence part.

It's ***** me that the media have jumped on the "recent spate of glassings"...********!! glassings have been happening for as long as there's been glass, alcohol and f*ckwits.

I got glassed 9 years ago now... right above the right eye... 32 stitches (16 internal) in a 6 inch gash mostly in my eyebrow... can't really tell now.. just looks like a footy scar or something... most people wouldn't even know... the f*cker who did it got 18months suspended. Opened up my face to the bone.

I used to work security in a residential pub... that's where it happened... was asking a group to leave... didn't even touch anyone and whammo get a bottle in the face... then i get jumped and pinned to a wall. I fought my way out and had decent backup... but i could've been pretty f*cked up.

Drugs, alcohol whatever... the determing factor was that the guy was a douche bag... plan and simple. Take away the drugs/alcohol and you'll always have these guys around... won't stop it one bit... some people are just f*ckers!!

 

[rotten]

The solution to violent crime is to take the violent and sit them down and ask them why they are so ******* angry.

When you know that you can take the anger away.

Yeah good luck with that. Should we let them go back home while you take the anger away, and risk it happenimg again? Or actually get them off the street while we do it?

 

[amiddler]

RESPECT!!!

WTF happened to it??

Simple as that.

Drew

 

[manticle]

When was there respect by default?

 

[Bribie G]

There's a wee city in Pennsylvania called Reading that I would love to visit with my camera as it contains superb specimens of Victorian row houses. I've been around it quite few times on Streetview and out of interest have had a look at what the place is like and how people live, and re this current thread here's the court log from the local paper, for the last few weeks. The town would be about the size of maybe Bendigo or Ipswich.

3 to 23 months in jail for failing to disperse. Wow if I go there I'll disperse quick smart yes sireee :lol:


Judge: Judge John A. Boccabella
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: James Lowell
Age: 46
Address: Adamstown
Charges: driving under the influence of alcohol
Plead: Guilty
Location: Wernersville
Sentence: one to five years in Berks County Prison

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: Luis Frias
Age: 29
Address: 900 block of Church Street, Reading
Charges: weapons offenses
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: five years of probation

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: Kevin Schaner
Age: 24
Address: 600 block of North Ninth Street, Reading
Charges: endangering the welfare of a child
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: five years of probation

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: Kyle Cassler
Age: 22
Address: 200 block of Centreport Road, Mohrsville
Charges: harassment
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: one year of probation

Judge: Judge Stephen B. Lieberman
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: Ivette Ortiz
Age: 43
Address: 300 block of North Front Street, Reading
Charges: delivering cocaine
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: nine months to four years in Berks County Prison

Judge: Judge Stephen B. Lieberman
Date: 10/19/2010
Name: Abdil Avellanet-DeJesus
Age: 28
Address: 200 block of North Second Street, Reading
Charges: theft
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: three years of probation

Judge: Judge John A. Boccabella
Date: 10/2/2010
Name: Peter Cruz
Age: 43
Address: 100 block of East Main Street, Caernarvon Township
Charges: retail theft
Plead: Guilty
Location: Caernarvon Township
Sentence: three to 23 months in Berks County Prison

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 10/2/2010
Name: Eric Wright
Age: 27
Address: 1100 block of North 11th Street, Reading
Charges: delivering cocaine
Plead: Convicted
Location: Reading
Sentence: five to 10 years in state prison

Judge: Judge Paul M. Yatron
Date: 10/2/2010
Name: Alexander Williams
Age: 25
Address: 1200 block of Spring Street, Reading
Charges: weapons offenses
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: one to seven years in state prison

Judge: Judge Stephen B. Lieberman
Date: 10/2/2010
Name: Vernon Peterson Sr.
Age: 44
Address: 600 block of Alton Avenue, Reading
Charges: simple assault
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: one year of probation

Judge: Judge Thomas G. Parisi
Date: 10/2/2010
Name: Pablo Martinez
Age: 33
Address: 600 block of North Sixth Street, Reading
Charges: theft
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: two years of probation

Judge: Judge John A. Boccabella
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Joshua West
Age: 22
Address: 400 block of Country Lane, Morgantown
Charges: driving under the influence of alcohol
Plead: Guilty
Location: Muhlenberg Township
Sentence: two months in Berks County Prison followed by six months of probation

Judge: Judge John A. Boccabella
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Jonathan Witmyer
Age: 23
Address: 1900 block of Van Reed Road, Wyomissing
Charges: driving under the influence of alcohol
Plead: Guilty
Location: Shoemakersville
Sentence: five days in Berks County Prison followed by five years of probation

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Harry DeJesus
Age: 42
Address: 1000 block of Green Street, Reading
Charges: delivering cocaine
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: one to two years in state prison

Judge: Judge Linda K.M. Ludgate
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Juan Acevedo
Age: 29
Address: 100 block of Moss Street, Reading
Charges: weapons offenses
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: four to eight years in state prison

Judge: Judge Paul M. Yatron
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Hector Martinez-Rodriguez
Age: 29
Address: 1100 block of Perkiomen Avenue, Reading
Charges: robbery
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: four to eight years in state prison

Judge: Judge Paul M. Yatron
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Darnell Coad
Age: 35
Address: first block of South Ninth Street, Reading
Charges: failing to disperse
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: three to 23 months in Berks County Prison

Judge: Judge Scott D. Keller
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Quayshawn Knight
Age: 19
Address: 300 block of Madison Avenue, Reading
Charges: simple assault
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: nine to 18 months in Berks County Prison

Judge: Judge Stephen B. Lieberman
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Zachary Bortz
Age: 21
Address: 2000 block of Grandview Avenue, Exeter Township
Charges: delivering cocaine
Plead: Guilty
Location: Exeter Township
Sentence: 21 months to five years in state prison

Judge: Judge Stephen B. Lieberman
Date: 9/30/2010
Name: Sheila Ringgold
Age: 34
Address: 900 block of Franklin Street, Reading
Charges: conspiracy
Plead: Guilty
Location: Reading
Sentence: four to 23 months in Berks County Prison

 

[amiddler]

When was there respect by default?

What I'm saying manticle is In My Opinion, people have lost some Respect in general. People with self abuse problems have lost respect for themselves in some way and people going out trying to pick a fight have lost respect for there fellow man. If these people went out with the mind set to have a good time and stay out of trouble we could all go out and have a great time.

I will say that I don't frequent night spots, would rather a few beers amoungst mates and a trouble free night. Also that the people that do blantent harm like stomping peoples heads should have the book thrown at them.

The simple answer IMO is to try and culture people to build a level of Respect for themselves and others again. I supose people will say that is a cop out because if the world had a better level of respect we also wouldn't need war but we need to start somewhere and if it was that easy we would have ended war decades ago.

Drew

 

[pbrosnan]

They introduced a private (for profit) jail system, that's why you see that first graph. They also have over 3% of the population in jail or on parole.

You are 10 times more likely to be murdered in America than here. They could put 10% of their population in jail and it wouldn't make a difference. America has issues because so many of them are very poor.

I'm there again in a few weeks. I like the place, but it's not here, that's for sure. Here is one of the best places in the world hands down.

Certainly this comment "I reckon a few years of that policy in Australia would get the trash off the streets" seems very niave. It hasn't worked in the US and most of the "trash" here are probably not criminals per se. They are affected by alcohol and drugs and, in the case of males, a cultural that glorifies male violence. So go ahead, put your sons, brothers or father's in jail. Personally I don't think it will help.

 

[manticle]

What I'm saying manticle is In My Opinion, people have lost some Respect in general. People with self abuse problems have lost respect for themselves in some way and people going out trying to pick a fight have lost respect for there fellow man. If these people went out with the mind set to have a good time and stay out of trouble we could all go out and have a great time.

I will say that I don't frequent night spots, would rather a few beers amoungst mates and a trouble free night. Also that the people that do blantent harm like stomping peoples heads should have the book thrown at them.

The simple answer IMO is to try and culture people to build a level of Respect for themselves and others again. I supose people will say that is a cop out because if the world had a better level of respect we also wouldn't need war but we need to start somewhere and if it was that easy we would have ended war decades ago.

Drew

I agree that respect for ourselves and others would solve a lot of problems. I just don't believe humans have had any greater respect for others in times past. There's just a greater number (same proportion though) of arseholes and wider communication so it's more in your face.

 

[pk.sax]

I don't bother with the clubs here that much, they are **** in comparison, bu just as a thing o think about, in germany, the six months that I was there, never saw even a punching. Have certainly seen that here.

The reason as far as I can see: police presence. Not just around night venues but everywhere. Police patrol the cities and neighbourhoods over there like that IS their job. Here, the cops patrol the CBD and hotspots as a 'special' thing. You could get into a punch up with some drunks when nobody is looking and get away with it. Over there, the cops are patrolling all areas right to your house so if you did some ****, much greater chance you'd be caught. Heck, me n a mate got pulled over on a pushbike at 1AM for riding double on a bike and the cops kindly asked us to dismount and walk home. They even visited my apartment. At 11PM to return my wallet that I'd lost earlier in the day and I happened to be out partying. Maybe they don't have a life, but they sure make yours safer. Our police steps in to do something to solve problems when they are already there, those guys do it to prevent problems. Makes a huge difference and they don't go nazi on ur ass like American cops I've heard do to you.

 

[nzefactor]

it's this latest bloody generation (insert letter)! No respect or decency. And etc.

I laugh about the olds saying this kinda stuff but unfortunately there's a grain of truth to it. Sometimes it does seem people these days are just plain old selfish idiots.
Gotta say though the drinking culture in the UK, especially in the bigger cities, scares the **** outa me. Masses of people, even chicks, drinking as if the alcohol is the prep work before a night of confrontational behaviour. Bad, bad news.
Gotta figure though in Aus the drinking culture is inevitably going to change. the more people out drinking = the greater the chance of violent confrontation. Kids growing up now are exposed to much more crap than 20 years ago, factor in a whole portion of the population coming from offshore and bringing different social/drinking culture...****, a lot of the time we narrowly avoid pissing each other off when we're sober, sure as hell gonna struggle after a couple (12?) of pints.

Have to stop this ability to bail yourself out of a heavy sentence by just turning around and saying "oh yeah, judge? I've got a mental illness. Sorry"