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djar007

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How on earth do you guys make starters for say fifty litres. I run my stats through Mr malty and it asks for five and six litre starters. So although it's working making four litre starters I am underpitching. How do people with bigger setups get around this.
 

Black n Tan

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Step starter. Usually 1L, refrigerate and discard spent wort, then step up to 4L.
 

djar007

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Cheers grant. Makes sense. I will have a try at that. So the first litre will double my yeast. Then I step up the already double amount to four litres. Problem solved. Thanks heaps.
 

kaiserben

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If I wanted to, instead of pitching on to a yeast cake as soon as it becomes available, save a yeast cake to pitch into wort later (say 3 weeks later), what's a good, safe method of saving it for later?

Will I be able to figure out roughly how many cells I'll have, or how much I need to save to have roughly the amount of cells I'll need?

For reference I'll be pitching approx 425bn cells WLP838 into a dunkel. When I move that dunkel to secondary I'd like to salvage enough yeast to be able to pitch approx 425bn cells into a schwarzbier 3 weeks later.
 

jibba02

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WTF is wrong with my frozen yeast? Why is it trying to escape?

50% yeast slurry was added to the tube then a 30% glycerine mix was added to make up the other 50%
The tube was then shaken, lid cracked and placed in the fridge for 2 days. Then transfered to the freezer with the rest of my yeast.
The tubes were stored upright.





yeast.jpg
 

jibba02

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Thought i may have been. Top of tube has obviously frozen before the bottom. The top of the tube was very close to the fan :(
 

Melvict

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chiller said:
The short unscientific answer is that if you give a relatively small number of yeast a larger [compared to their number] amount of starter they can get rather lazy and often only work on what they need and not reach the sort of numbers requires for a brew. They then behave a lot like Aussie drinkers after their fill and fall asleep on the bottom of the bar/starter.

Adding from my collection about slightly bigger than a thumbnail amount of yeast to 50 mls ensures that they will get into the reproductive stage quickly without moving to beer making stage. Adding more starter to the 50 mls at about 24 hours keeps them in the making yeast stage. If I time it right I will step up to 1 - 2 litres at the point the yeast numbers are approaching the maximum for the size of the starter.

Steve
spog said:
great informative post,chiller,ihave been doing the same as jy,and have yet to find a problem,i have only recycled ? my yeast,s no more than 3 times because i was under the impression that after this time the yeast basically shit,s it,s self. but now it has finally dawned on me that ,yes yeast IS a living organism and if looked after and not basically abused will continue to grow,or be useable.
chiller said:
I have been asked on a number of occassions to explain my method for yeast farming -- Well it is nearly 40c outside and even I consider it is too hot to fire up the NASA burners so I hope you find this material useful.

Yeast and homebrewing are almost hand in hand as mystery black arts. And there is a mountain of repeated information that is never tried just repeated.

Yeast is a great thing and it has a strong need to make beer. It is no where near as delicate as people try to make out and will survive for a very long time with a very small amount of preparation.

Yeast from the secondary are often the slower flocculators and as such may not be true to the character of the initial pitching that is comfortably sleeping in the primary.

The day before you intend to remove the beer from the primary prepare 2 litres of sterile water [boil for 15minutes is enough] and allow to cool in the fridge in a sealable PET soft drink bottle will do.

Obtain 2 500 ml jars, a clean sanitised beer glass and 3 50 - 100 ml sample vials.

Transfer the beer off the cake and remove all the beer [not the yeast] Pour 500ml of your sterile water into the fermenter and give it a very good swill around to mix the yeast and water, now with the sanitised beer glass collect enough of the yeast solution to almost fill one of the jars. Shake it really well and lightly seal it and set it in the fridge for about 10 - 15 minutes. The heavy material will drop and you can now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water.

Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the other jar. After the 10 minutes pour the milky yeast liquid into the 2nd jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the first jar. Now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the 3 small sample jars.

Fill the sample jars 3/4 full with the milky liquid remaining, cap these and place in the fridge.

What remains in the larger jar can be used for your next brew [make a starter] or discarded.

Next stage is to let the yeast settle out in the sample jars for 24 - 48 hours. You will now have a compact yeast layer and reasonably clean liquid on top. Remove the lid and pour off most of the liquid and replace with your sterile water. Shake well and let settle again for 24 hours. The liquid will now be quite clear, pour this off and replace with sterile water and return to the fridge. Check your samples over the next week and if the water shows any discolouration replace it with fresh sterile water.

These samples will remain viable for at least 12 -- 18 months and maybe longer. I have used a Scottish ale yeast kept in my yeast farm that was dated 3 years old. It fired up over 2 days stepping up from 50mls to 150 mls to 500 mls.

I have used yeast over many generations maintained in this manner with absolutely no changes in character. Far bejond the mythical oft repeated homebrew law of 3 generations. For interesting reading on yeast examine what the late George Fix had to say on the topic.

The only danger and it is real is the danger of infection when harvesting yeast. Most All Grain brewers are competent at sanitation and the problem is small.

Pint of Lager has at one stage on either this forum or another posted a very practical guide to sanitation.

Even if you only brew once again from each of the samples over the next 6 months you will be using your yeast more efficiently. Don't forget when you use the last sample repeat the procedure. Another three samples will be waiting when you need them. You will probably have 3 -- 4 favourite yeasts you use on a regular basis and this method will ensure you keep a healthy supply ongoing for a very long time.

Yeast are your friends.

Steve
 

SeeFar

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First, I apologies in advance. I've started reading this thread but it's too long for me to read through in the time I have.

I'm about to rack a brew and would like to recycle/harvest the yeast. I've read the first post and similar variants - grab a bunch of stuff from the previous brew, let it settle in sanitised water a couple of times over and viola, there's your yeast. All good.

The two questions I have are:

1 - how will I know that I have the adequate amount required for my wort that I intend to pitch into - not too much, not too little yeast.

2 - Before I pitch it should I put it in some starter wort to get things kicking?


I will be racking brew #1 this afternoon and pitching into brew #2 hopefully tomorrow afternoon but can keep the wort waiting if need be.

Thanks for any advice.
 

roller997

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While I am not an expert in this field and while it might be a bit late for you given you were going to rack in the afternoon, here is my 20c worth.
I would expect that your best option would have been to take some yeast at the height of the fermentation when yeast is most viable. At that stage if you were going to store it for a longer period than just a couple of days, you would go through a more stringent process.
With yeast that has settled, some of it will still be viable and good but for some of the yeast, it will be less than ideal but still usable.

If you are going to brew the next day, I would expect that you don't need to clean the yeast as much as you would for long term storage in gelatin vials but what is very critical is that everything is sanitised as well as you possibly can. You don't want to introduce anything beyond the yeast to the wort tomorrow.

Again, I have not re-harvested settled yeast so the quantity I would use may not be enough. I would look to use about a cup of the settled yeast in the new wort, given that I ferment 46 litre batches. I would think is a lot more viable yeast cells than two packets of dry or liquid yeast but I am just speculating.

Given the short time between batches, I would rather pour the harvested yeast onto a starter than try to purify it.

Cheers
Roller
 

HaveFun

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Instead of harvesting yeast from a fermented beer, can I make a starter from a dry packet of yeast and use half in the first brew and the other half in a second brew?

For example:

2000ml RO Water + 220g DME + 1 packet of dry yeast as a starter for 72h

Then I add one litre to my first batch of beer and the second half I keep in the fridge for the second brew in a few weeks ?

Cheers
Stefan
 

altone

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Instead of harvesting yeast from a fermented beer, can I make a starter from a dry packet of yeast and use half in the first brew and the other half in a second brew?

For example:

2000ml RO Water + 220g DME + 1 packet of dry yeast as a starter for 72h

Then I add one litre to my first batch of beer and the second half I keep in the fridge for the second brew in a few weeks ?

Cheers
Stefan
Why not! so long as you keep the second half in a sterile jar in the fridge.

Done similar for ages - although normally with hard to get liquid yeasts, can't be bothered for dry yeast.

Do pull the 2nd half out maybe a day before you use it and give it a chance to get used to your ferment temp.
I normally whack it on the stirplate for a few hours to get it going again. (some extra DME and a shake will do fine)
 

peterlonz

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Steve's article is pretty much a simple common sense approach that he tells us works well in practice.
We should not ignore that or suggest that his methods are not supportable by micro-biology or current industry practice.
If it works reliably, as Steve claims, it's a very useful homebrew technique.
I operate an even simpler method: store "on beer" no washing, & limit myself to 3 generations. It works for me, but I can't suggest its suitable for serious brewers because I just don't have the volume of data to back up this approach.
 

HaveFun

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I was thinking of doing a step starter.. with this yeast starter calculator:

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Is there a downloadable version of the calculator available? Because the link on the site is not working

If I start with a 3l Flask and add 1.5l RO Water + 150g DME + 10g Yeast nutrient that should give me a gravity of 1.037

After a day the gravity reading was 1.022 - the yeast is working :)

Do I wait till the gravity is down to 1.005 or the yeast stop working before I proceed with step no 2?

Next step is to increase the starter volume to 2.5l

I add another 1l RO Water

Do I have to add 100g DME OR +250g DME to get a gravity of 1.037?

What happens if I keep the starter volume of 1.5l and only add more DME to get back to my gravity of 1.037 ?

Cheers
Stefan
 

Indian Giver

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Why?

The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.

For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.
 

HaveFun

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Why?

The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.

For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.
I think you are right... I may consider buying yeast in bulk I can get 500g Saflager W-34/70 for $150 from the local HBS

Cheers

Stefan
 

Indian Giver

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I think you are right... I may consider buying yeast in bulk I can get 500g Saflager W-34/70 for $150 from the local HBS

Cheers

Stefan
I have Hoppy days near me. When they have yeast on special I buy a double or triple of them. Hold onto it until I need it.

For wet yeast, I do a let's freeze some yeast google search, find the guy who made the thread, follow those instructions and pictures, and split a packet. 5 vials from one pack is good value and the DME is worth it then. I do it so infrequently I have to re-search for the thread in question and then get my head around it and do that.
 

altone

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Why?

The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.

For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.
Yes for dry yeast especially.
I use leftover wort to farm yeast so no real cost as I'd chuck it otherwise (I try to do single keg batches) and the glycerine freeze method to keep seasonal strains.

I'm recovering a 5 yr old frozen yeast atm that's not been in the freezer 2 years - just to see what happens.
There's life in the flask so a good start.
 

Moad

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How on earth do you guys make starters for say fifty litres. I run my stats through Mr malty and it asks for five and six litre starters. So although it's working making four litre starters I am underpitching. How do people with bigger setups get around this.
No chill and pitch a single batch as a "starter" for 40-60L fermentation.
 

eviljesus

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Been yeast farming for quite a while now just to keep a good supply on hand at any one time however my brother regularly visits the US and is able to bring back some ore obscure yeasts for me, so this should be very interesting.

My question relates to the Kveik yeasts. I've just got a vial of Sigmund Voss that I am going to grow up and split into a fair few vials for short and longer term storage. Kveik usually likes to run very warm, but I can only really find information pertaining to using it for a ferment in a beer. Would I need to keep it up in the higher temperature range of things for farming purposes or the standard room temp will be ok? I'm guessing that because I'm not after any flavours etc from the yeast, just for it to grow, the temperature wont be as critical?

Also - suggestions for any interesting yeasts for my bro to bring back would be welcomed. Also keen to swap a few different types in the near future if anyone wants to get a yeast grow/swap setup. I'm in Brisbane.

Cheers
 
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