Will Sparge Astringency Ferment/mature Out?

[Trent]

Gday all
Been batch sparging for a while, so decided to give fly sparging a go again (used to do it on my 10L system). Brewed last week and got way higher efficiency than batch sparging, so just tried it again tonight, and got better efficiency again, but it as a bit astringent . I mashed out at 75C, and it tasted great, and then I fly sparged with 78C water, that crept up to about 79/80, and my mash bed was sitting at 78C. I figured 78C must be alright, otherwise they wouldnt recommend sparging with 78C water. Doc's excellent Cheat Sheet shows sparging temp all the way up to 82C. Didnt oversparge, and ended up 5 points above predicted gravity. It is my house porter, and usually isnt astringgent, so has anyone done this before, and if so, does it ferment out, or settle a little in the bottle, or is it just going to get worse, with less sweetness to stand up to it? I am not gonna tip it, as I need to re-harvest the yeast for a russian imperial next week. Also, is it right that I should mash out at 75 and sparge at 78, or have I been smoking crack (figure of speech), and imagined reading this advice on several occasions?
All the best
Trent

 

[Voosher]

I'm happy with the temps. I use similar numbers myself for mash out and sparge.
Did you check the SG of your last runnings?
I normally fly sparge and 'sparge to volume'. 1kg grain yields about 6l of wort with final runnings at about the recommended SG of 1010. Efficiency is normally over 80% and no signs of astrigency so unfortunately I can't tell you if it will fade with time.

 

[vlbaby]

Gday all
Been batch sparging for a while, so decided to give fly sparging a go again (used to do it on my 10L system). Brewed last week and got way higher efficiency than batch sparging, so just tried it again tonight, and got better efficiency again, but it as a bit astringent . I mashed out at 75C, and it tasted great, and then I fly sparged with 78C water, that crept up to about 79/80, and my mash bed was sitting at 78C. I figured 78C must be alright, otherwise they wouldnt recommend sparging with 78C water. Doc's excellent Cheat Sheet shows sparging temp all the way up to 82C. Didnt oversparge, and ended up 5 points above predicted gravity. It is my house porter, and usually isnt astringgent, so has anyone done this before, and if so, does it ferment out, or settle a little in the bottle, or is it just going to get worse, with less sweetness to stand up to it? I am not gonna tip it, as I need to re-harvest the yeast for a russian imperial next week. Also, is it right that I should mash out at 75 and sparge at 78, or have I been smoking crack (figure of speech), and imagined reading this advice on several occasions?
All the best
Trent

I havent known astringent flavours to disapate much with time, but i do believe the addition of gelatine may remove some or all of it from your brew.
Supposedly it will cling to the positively charged proteins responsible for the sensationof astringency, and will precipitate out of solution to the bottom of the fermenter.

I've tried it myself a few times, and the jurys still out on whether it is effective or not.
Could be worth a try for you maybe.


cheers


vl.

 

[dicko]

Gday all
Been batch sparging for a while, so decided to give fly sparging a go again (used to do it on my 10L system). Brewed last week and got way higher efficiency than batch sparging, so just tried it again tonight, and got better efficiency again, but it as a bit astringent . I mashed out at 75C, and it tasted great, and then I fly sparged with 78C water, that crept up to about 79/80, and my mash bed was sitting at 78C. I figured 78C must be alright, otherwise they wouldnt recommend sparging with 78C water. Doc's excellent Cheat Sheet shows sparging temp all the way up to 82C. Didnt oversparge, and ended up 5 points above predicted gravity. It is my house porter, and usually isnt astringgent, so has anyone done this before, and if so, does it ferment out, or settle a little in the bottle, or is it just going to get worse, with less sweetness to stand up to it? I am not gonna tip it, as I need to re-harvest the yeast for a russian imperial next week. Also, is it right that I should mash out at 75 and sparge at 78, or have I been smoking crack (figure of speech), and imagined reading this advice on several occasions?
All the best
Trent

If your volume was what you aimed for and your SG was a tad high then I wouldn't worry, just cold condition even for only a couple of days at fridge temp and this will get most of the crap to fall out of the beer.
Astringency will be there forever but at the temps you stated I dont think that you will have a real problem.
Dark beers are very forgiving, so just bottle or if you can, filter and keg, drink up, and enjoy.
BTW when did you decide that this beer had astringency??
Cheers

 

[Trent]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys
I will let it ferment out, and see how it is going. Just tasting a sample that I have kept aside, it is POSSIBLE it isnt an astringency, but it certainly isnt the usually silky chocolate flavour I get straight out of the kettle, kinda like it is a rough bitterness, yet only 25 IBU, so I dont think it is that. Hmmm, I didnt check the SG of my last runnings, as I "underlet" it into my kettle, and it is a pain in the freckle to take the hoses off and stuff just to check SG, but maybe I should do that in the future, even though I just have my entire volume needed as sparge water, ie - 5.7kg grain, mashed with 13.1L, mashed out with 6.6L, giving me a total of 14L as my first runnings. I usually boil 30L to get me down to 26L (2L to trub, 1L for priming, 23 into fermenter), so I sparged with 16L for 30L. Hit all my targets for volume, so I dunno what went wrong? Anyway, if it doesnt get any better, I will go with vl's suggestion of gelatin, nothing to lose I suppose.
Thanks again
Trent
EDIT - Dicko, it seemed much harsher than usual straight out of the kettle, so that is where I decided it must be astringency, but I could be wrong (and hope I am). I think I am just worrying a little too much and will see how it ferments out. T.

 

[Millet Man]

Gday all
Been batch sparging for a while, so decided to give fly sparging a go again (used to do it on my 10L system). Brewed last week and got way higher efficiency than batch sparging, so just tried it again tonight, and got better efficiency again, but it as a bit astringent . I mashed out at 75C, and it tasted great, and then I fly sparged with 78C water, that crept up to about 79/80, and my mash bed was sitting at 78C. I figured 78C must be alright, otherwise they wouldnt recommend sparging with 78C water. Doc's excellent Cheat Sheet shows sparging temp all the way up to 82C. Didnt oversparge, and ended up 5 points above predicted gravity. It is my house porter, and usually isnt astringgent, so has anyone done this before, and if so, does it ferment out, or settle a little in the bottle, or is it just going to get worse, with less sweetness to stand up to it? I am not gonna tip it, as I need to re-harvest the yeast for a russian imperial next week. Also, is it right that I should mash out at 75 and sparge at 78, or have I been smoking crack (figure of speech), and imagined reading this advice on several occasions?
All the best
Trent

Temps are fine but make sure your sparge water pH is low (around 5.7) as pH is the other main contributor to extracting tannins. If your sparge water pH is below 6 then last runnings will be below 6.

Routinely get 95% efficiency (very fine crush) collecting 5-6 lt of wort per kg with fly sparging.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[dicko]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys
I will let it ferment out, and see how it is going. Just tasting a sample that I have kept aside, it is POSSIBLE it isnt an astringency, but it certainly isnt the usually silky chocolate flavour I get straight out of the kettle, kinda like it is a rough bitterness, yet only 25 IBU, so I dont think it is that. Hmmm, I didnt check the SG of my last runnings, as I "underlet" it into my kettle, and it is a pain in the freckle to take the hoses off and stuff just to check SG, but maybe I should do that in the future, even though I just have my entire volume needed as sparge water, ie - 5.7kg grain, mashed with 13.1L, mashed out with 6.6L, giving me a total of 14L as my first runnings. I usually boil 30L to get me down to 26L (2L to trub, 1L for priming, 23 into fermenter), so I sparged with 16L for 30L. Hit all my targets for volume, so I dunno what went wrong? Anyway, if it doesnt get any better, I will go with vl's suggestion of gelatin, nothing to lose I suppose.
Thanks again
Trent
EDIT - Dicko, it seemed much harsher than usual straight out of the kettle, so that is where I decided it must be astringency, but I could be wrong (and hope I am). I think I am just worrying a little too much and will see how it ferments out. T.

Trent,

Your figures seem sound, you haven't posted you recipe but you will need to watch the age of your hops as well. Old hops can be a source of off flavours in the beer.
You didn't change brands of chocolate malt did you?
They do vary a bit.
All things being equal, you may be overly concerned about a couple of degrees in sparge temp which may not cause you any worries with the finished product.
Cheers

 

[Trent]

Hey guys
Just a quick update, and another round of thanks for calming my stressful mind . I am about to rack the beer, it was a porter, and the hops were reasonably fresh, and hence (like you all basically predicted) the beer itself tastes OK, so I am blowed if I know what that dry/bitter/harsh taste was, but it isnt there any more. I will try not to stress out so much any more , and will probably continue to fly sparge at the temps I indicated, as most of you seem to use them, and they are obviously OK. Efficiency was over 80%, OG was 1055, and current gravity is 1012.
I will try and keep my freak outs to post fermentation from now on!
All the best
Trent

 

[Weizguy]

Trent,

Maybe it was the active yeast flavour, coz I tasted it (that taste) tonight in my recently bottled Xuly case portah, which was primed 3 daze ago.

Tasted good at bottling but has the taste U mentioned right now. May need to condition a while before drinking. Hope it works out ok, but the Berliner is tasting great, buut will improve with carbonation.

Time to post to the NSW case thread...

Seth out

 

[matti]

Just curious what beer/ale you making mashing and sparging at so high temps?
My understanding is that you will leak out tannins at higher temps. Though I am new in this game, I would not allow the lauterbed temp rise above 69 degrees. Mashing around 66-68 for 60- 90 mintutes pending of style and recipe.
I sparged in my colander +1 hour of 1.5 kgs grain to aproximately 9 ltre.
Sg of final drained wort 1.010.
PH of sparge water was 5.8 and lauter bed temp always 66 degrees.
(I used single decoction and fine grist with fishnet stocking wrapped around colander LOL)
Some astringency will disappear using finings but longer CCing/lagering period will mellow out the astringency quite well.
My lager beer, lager at -1 to -2 for 3-4 weeks.
Matti
Is it usual to have lauter bed at so high temps for Porter? I thought that porter recipes has different tyre of grain combo na hops and different fermentation schedule.
The sparge liqour temp should be higher so granbed temp remains aroung 66-69
:blink:

 

[Gulf Brewery]

<snipped>
I mashed out at 75C, and it tasted great, and then I fly sparged with 78C water, that crept up to about 79/80, and my mash bed was sitting at 78C. I figured 78C must be alright, otherwise they wouldnt recommend sparging with 78C water.
<snip>All the best
Trent

Trent
The idea of raising the mash to 75 is to stop the conversion of starches to sugars by denaturing the enzymes. If you stick to a max of 75 and a pH of less than 6, you shouldn't get any astrigency (lots of references around about this)

I know when I fly sparge at home, my sparge liquor is around 80C, but by the time it is sprayed over the grain bed, it is only in the low 70's and the mash seems to be a bit lower. When you measured the temperature, did you measure at the top or bottom of them mash?

The main thing is to sparge slowly at first and increase the speed of drawing off the wort as time goes by. It is worth checking the SG of the last runnings - it shouldn't be less than 1.006 otherwise you will be extracting things like tannins.

The bitterness / harshness you may have been tasting may have been just the hops and some of this is driven out with the fermentation (check the taste of the brown ring of scum in the fermenter)

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Trent]

Hey Guys
Matti - I usually mash my porters at 64-66C (used to do it at 68C, but they were too heavy to drink all night), actually, I mash all my beers at that temp, though the lower the OG, the closer I get to 70C, like a 1032 bitter I will mash at 70C, and my 1110 Russian Imperial Stout I will mash at 64-65. I always perform a mashout to 75C, but usually only hit 72-74. I have only just started fly sparging again, after batch sparging my last 40 odd batches, and I was/am under the impression that the grain bed should be around 75C when sparging. The reason being, the maltose is a sticky solution, and it is easier to get it out the hotter it is (within reason), much the same as it is easier to pour warm honey, rather than cold honey, if you get me. The tannins will come out over 75C, I always thought, but I could be wrong. There is alot about water chemistry I dont know, and am trying to learn (I will be picking your brain next BJCP Kieth!!!), but there is alot of buffering power in the malts, and tannins will be leached out if the pH is too high(?) That is why decoction mashing doesnt extract tannins, where you remove 1/3 of the grains, and boil them, it all has to do with pH and buffering power. When you start to sparge, most of that buffering power in the wort is lost, and as you get progressively weaker gravity in the liquor still covering the grains, the pH will start to rise, and leach out tannins and astringeny, which is also what happens at too high a temperature, hence why I thought I had sparged too high. I believe you want to aim for a mash pH between 5.1 and 5.5 measured at mash temps. The more dark malts you have, the lower your mash pH will be.

Pedro - I understand the reason behind mashing out, but am still feeling out the intricacies of water chemistry, as you have probably just read. I stick a candy thermometer into the middle of my grain bed to keep an eye on the temp in there, and I also have a bimetal thermometer in my HLT, so I am reasonably confident the numbers are fairly accurate, though, as Weizguy has told me on numerous occasions, my thermometers may not be completely accurate, as they are only cheapies. As far as sparge water pH goes, I have only just received a water quality analysis from the local water supplier, they dont publish the info ANYWHERE, and the analysis they did send me was from 2004, which is disappointing, but the lady assured me it was pretty much the same. It is very soft (though tastes bloody awful) and has a pH of 7.2. Should I somehow acidify this water before sparging with it? This could be the reason I found it to be more astringent than usual, as I am usually only batchiung, and the wort should still have sufficient buffering power. I havent ever tested the final runnings, as I attach my pump to a hose that goes straight in the tap on the kettle, so it will be a real pain in the freckle to take it all off for a gravity check. I sparge very slowly, taking 50 mins to get 30L into the kettle, and plan on taking over an hour for my RIS tomorrow. I have tried the beer since, and it has come up quite well, but I didnt think to taste the brown scum ring, I will do that next time though, thanks for the tip. It more than likely was the hops, but at only 25IBU, it seems unlikely. Who knows? All I know, is that the beer has come up alright, and I am learning a hell of alot on this thread. Do you think I should adjust the pH of my sparge water, even though I wont be sparging to less than 1006, or should it be OK?
All the best, and apologies for the long post
Trent

 

[Gulf Brewery]

It is very soft (though tastes bloody awful) and has a pH of 7.2. Should I somehow acidify this water before sparging with it?

Trent

I would acidify it and bring it down to near 6 - near is good enough, don't get hung up on it if it is 6.2 or 5.8.
Phosphoric acid is the easiest way to adjust, but you will need pH strips or a meter to make sure of it. A lot of brewers don't worry about it and still produce good beers.

As for the water specs, they do not vary a lot from year to year, but I notice the SA water seems to vary a bit when they have to take a lot from the the salt creek called the Murray.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[matti]

Cheer Trent Diddo 'bout the learning bit,
I bought pool water strips to get an idea of my local water and ph strip to get approximate Ph and use citric acid and baking soda to adjust.
A wee bit primitive. Our soil is clay so gypsum is ideal for adjusting water as well as pre boil all brew liqour to get rid of chlorins etc.
All tap Sydney tap-water is soft but generally too alkaline for sparging once you get pickie.
^_^

MAtti