Why Are My Starters Always Rank

[manticle]

It seems a lot of people confuse starters and stepping up. I do them as one (step up as needed, then wait for krausen, then pitch) but they are separate. The oxidised flavours you can get from treating the step up part too aggressively (eg stirplates, hot ferment) can affect the beer if not decanted.

Personally I prefer to treat step ups and starters as I do my beer, and not worry about decanting, bad esters or oxidation.

 

[tazman1967]

Do you sanitise your scissors before you cut the Smack Pack ?? Not using the kitchen knife to cut them open ??? ... Just a possible source of infection..

 

[Wolfy]

...
*Boil wort (500ml) in Erlenmeyer flask for 5-10mins, loosely covered with foil
*Remove from heat and drop in a stir bar, leave for 5 mins
*Chill to pitching temp (18c)
*Pitch yeast (dregs from smack pack) and start stir plate, just enough to get the wort circulating
...

The 'dregs' from my Wyeast packs are usually less a 1ml so if you are adding those to 500ml of wort, most likely you are under pitching and some of the 'off' smells could be due to additional yeast reproduction activity.

Given that you are pitching a full pack into your beer, why are you even making a starter?
The two usual reasons for a starter are to improve yeast viability/health and to increase the yeast cell count, and I can't see how doing either of those help in the situation you have described.

However, I'd suggest two experiments so you can isolate where the problem may be:
1) Next time you brew split about 1L of the wort, and use that to build your starter in the usual way and with the usual equipment, do not put this starter on the stir plate (but still include the stir bar etc). Pitch the pack of yeast into your beer-wort and the dregs into the starter what will be exactly the same wort. In a few days you can compare the starter to the beer and you'll know if there is any issue with your starter procedure or equipment. If the starter smells/tastes the same as your beer then proceed to 2, otherwise you have at least isolated the problem to to something within your starter procedure/equipment.

2) Repeat the experiment above, but this time put the starter on your stir plate. Again compare the stater with your beer after a few days, this time if the starter has 'off' smells/flavours then those who have suggested that it's an oxidation problem are most likely right.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm thinking its just a lot of yeast growth, fast = a lot more smells and general fermentation byproducts than there normally would be. Oxidation would smell like oxidation normally does, cardboard, paper, sherry etc. What you are likely to be getting out of a starter (the cell growth variety) is a bunch of esters, sulphur, actylaldehyde, fusels etc. All the normal fermentation smells and tastes... But happening at a fast and furious pace.

Let your starter finish out (I'd leave it on the stir plate the whole time) then put it in the fridge, let the yeast cake settle and compact for a day or so at nice cold temps.... Then decant off the supernatant "beer" and repitch the yeast into a nice fresh few litters of wort, just let it ferment off the plate like a small batch of beer. Then if your "funky" yeast makes a pleasant non-infected beer, you'll know it was just unfamiliar smells rather than ones that indicate something is wrong.

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

Do you sanitise your scissors before you cut the Smack Pack ?? Not using the kitchen knife to cut them open ??? ... Just a possible source of infection..

Yes, the smack pack and scissors are sanitised with Starsan solution

The 'dregs' from my Wyeast packs are usually less a 1ml so if you are adding those to 500ml of wort, most likely you are under pitching and some of the 'off' smells could be due to additional yeast reproduction activity.

Good point

Given that you are pitching a full pack into your beer, why are you even making a starter?
The two usual reasons for a starter are to improve yeast viability/health and to increase the yeast cell count, and I can't see how doing either of those help in the situation you have described.

Because I'd like to use starters for double batches, but since IMO they always seem to be 'off' I'd like to get the technique down before I try to use them again.

However, I'd suggest two experiments so you can isolate where the problem may be:
1) Next time you brew split about 1L of the wort, and use that to build your starter in the usual way and with the usual equipment, do not put this starter on the stir plate (but still include the stir bar etc). Pitch the pack of yeast into your beer-wort and the dregs into the starter what will be exactly the same wort. In a few days you can compare the starter to the beer and you'll know if there is any issue with your starter procedure or equipment. If the starter smells/tastes the same as your beer then proceed to 2, otherwise you have at least isolated the problem to to something within your starter procedure/equipment.

2) Repeat the experiment above, but this time put the starter on your stir plate. Again compare the stater with your beer after a few days, this time if the starter has 'off' smells/flavours then those who have suggested that it's an oxidation problem are most likely right.

Will try this out on the weekend, thanks for the suggestions

I'm thinking its just a lot of yeast growth, fast = a lot more smells and general fermentation byproducts than there normally would be. Oxidation would smell like oxidation normally does, cardboard, paper, sherry etc. What you are likely to be getting out of a starter (the cell growth variety) is a bunch of esters, sulphur, actylaldehyde, fusels etc. All the normal fermentation smells and tastes... But happening at a fast and furious pace.

Let your starter finish out (I'd leave it on the stir plate the whole time) then put it in the fridge, let the yeast cake settle and compact for a day or so at nice cold temps.... Then decant off the supernatant "beer" and repitch the yeast into a nice fresh few litters of wort, just let it ferment off the plate like a small batch of beer. Then if your "funky" yeast makes a pleasant non-infected beer, you'll know it was just unfamiliar smells rather than ones that indicate something is wrong.

Will also try this on the weekend, good thing I have a few flasks available..


Thanks again for all the feedback and suggestions :icon_cheers:

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

Okay, so I've made a few more starters since this thread and followed the advice given. The main change to my routine is I now sanitise my stir bars prior to dropping them into the erlenmeyers and leave them in the flask for the entire boil. I also top crop my yeast instead of using leftovers from the smack pack.

No more infections, no more funky starters... YEW! :icon_cheers:

So it looks like the stir bars were the source of my funky starters. Could also have possibly been underpitching with dregs of smack pack.

 

[Wolfy]

So it looks like the stir bars were the source of my funky starters. Could also have possibly been underpitching with dregs of smack pack.

Good to hear that you have the problem sorted out.
I treat my stir-bars fairly casually, just a bit of a clean and rinse under the tap, and then soak them in StarSan (for ages) until I reuse them or can be bothered drying and putting them away.

The only thing to keep in mind is that the yeast taken directly from the smack-pack will be 'virgin' or '0 generation' and if you crop from your fermenter there is some chance of drift, adaption and mutation.