Why Are My Starters Always Rank

[Cannibal Smurf]

Ok guys, I need some help here. I've tried making starters a few times now and they always end up smelling awful.

Procedure is normally;

*Wash Erlenmeyer flask with PBW
*Rinse with warm water
*Rinse with hot water x 2
*Boil wort (500ml) in Erlenmeyer flask for 5-10mins, loosely covered with foil
*Remove from heat and drop in a stir bar, leave for 5 mins
*Chill to pitching temp (18c)
*Pitch yeast (dregs from smack pack) and start stir plate, just enough to get the wort circulating
*check in 24hrs.... smells funky

When compared side by side to a fermenting brew, it smells awful... nothing like it does in the fermenter. I did this again on the weekend and have stepped it up to a 3L starter, the starter smells sh!t and the fermenting brew smells great.... :angry:

 

[unrealeous]

Do you sanitize your stir bar.

I do something very similary to above - but also have step 4 where everything gets put into a pressure cooker for 20 mins. Flask, stirrer and foil...

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

I PBW the stir bar to clean it and assumed that placing it in the flask of near boiling wort would sanitize it?

edit: is it safe to boil the wort with the stirbar in it?

 

[unrealeous]

I PBW the stir bar to clean it and assumed that placing it in the flask of near boiling wort would sanitize it?

edit: is it safe to boil the wort with the stirbar in it?

That could be your problem. I am really anal about sanitation when it comes to starters - since any contamination gets carried all the way through.

As for boiling stir bars - I have a teflon coated one - much like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stir_bar. You can boil the hell out of them.

 

[marksfish]

i always boil the stirbar in the flask and never had a problem. "yet"

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

That could be your problem. I am really anal about sanitation when it comes to starters - since any contamination gets carried all the way through.

As for boiling stir bars - I have a teflon coated one - much like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stir_bar. You can boil the hell out of them.

Mine is teflon too, will try boiling next time, I hope it's that simple. The rest of my procedures look ok to you though?

i always boil the stirbar in the flask and never had a problem. "yet"

Cheers, will from now on boil the lil' f'ker

 

[geoff_tewierik]

Teflon (white) or plastic coated (blue) stir bars were boiled to the bejebus in my old lab.

We had combo stirplate/hotplate in one units that I would have loved to bring home with me.

There's no comment about what's on top of the flask while cooling? The foil I hope. Also how is it chilled? Quickly in an ice bath, or on the bench? Could also be the dregs from the smack pack, what happens to the majority of it? Why are the dregs used? How are they handled?

 

[Fourstar]

starters do smell different as you are making yeast not beer. it wont smell sweet and malty, it will smell like yeasy dough or bread. Some yeasts also smell 'funky', some almost 'sour' but more like citrus than lactic or vinegar. its all just nose work. if it smells wrong, it probably is. if it smells different but familiar, its probabaly ok. only once have i noticed something different with a starter and it was quite obvious, you will know when its infected or NQR if you make enough of them.

I follow the same procedure as you smurf except i add my stirbar about 30 seconds before i turn off the flame and its been pre sanitised.

taste it, if it doesnt taste like funk but tastes like yeast... shes good to go.

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

Ok, I might brew an extra 4L next weekend and pitch some of this yeast to see how it comes out. Smelling side by side with the same yeast fermenting wort it's pretty average, not the lovely sweet smell i'm used to from Wyeast 3864. But it doesn't taste or smell like band-aids or vinegar so will see if it's just the DME or perhaps just the yeast itself giving it that funky smell. Either way I guess I'll know once it's fermenting some real wort. Cheers 4*

I guess this is where my inexperience is showing, I need to learn more about my yeasties.

BTW, looking at brewing that Hazlenut brown you gave me a recipe for next weekend.

 

[Silo Ted]

Is PBW a rinse off sanitiser, or just a cleaner ? A sparay of iodofor on everything, even pre-boil, never goes astray.

 

[manticle]

starters do smell different as you are making yeast not beer. it wont smell sweet and malty, it will smell like yeasy dough or bread. Some yeasts also smell 'funky', some almost 'sour' but more like citrus than lactic or vinegar. its all just nose work. if it smells wrong, it probably is. if it smells different but familiar, its probabaly ok. only once have i noticed something different with a starter and it was quite obvious, you will know when its infected or NQR if you make enough of them.

I follow the same procedure as you smurf except i add my stirbar about 30 seconds before i turn off the flame and its been pre sanitised.

taste it, if it doesnt taste like funk but tastes like yeast... shes good to go.

Exactly what I was thinking. Most of my starters don't smell appetising - they smell like lots of yeast. Try one day eating lots of yeast and see how appetising the stuff is. You may get different smells with different yeasts. It shouldn't smell acrid or sharp like vinegar, phenolic like rubber or bandaids and those kinds of smells but it may smell yuck. It won't taste great either but it will taste like fresh yeast

 

[Screwtop]

As Manticle says, get used to the smell and taste of yeast, easy to pick "off" yeast once you know how healthy yeast smells/tastes, different strains have slightly different aromas and tastes.

How long do you run the stirplate, once the starter has reached full krausen, turn it off - oxidised starter maybe?

 

[Fourstar]

How long do you run the stirplate, once the starter has reached full krausen, turn it off - oxidised starter maybe?

hey screwy, i recon he is just smelling the effects of a smack pack+unhopped wort.

those smack packs dont smell too appetising when you pitch em thats for sure.

 

[Screwtop]

hey screwy, i recon he is just smelling the effects of a smack pack+unhopped wort.

those smack packs dont smell too appetising when you pitch em thats for sure.

True out of the smackpack, but in a starter it should just smell like ........... well............yeast. I've had oxidised starters from leaving them to finish out on the stirplate, they smell "off".

Screwy

 

[manticle]

Oxidation could be another issue for sure. Decanting and then smelling/tasting the yeast should eradicate that possibility I think (myself I ferment my starters in the same conditions I ferment my wort and pitch when active).

however if I do a fast ferment test, I shake the shit out of the fermenting beer and the end result always tastes absolutely horrible - I put this down to extreme oxidation. Guesses only - I could be wrong.

 

[King Brown]

Mine usually smell bready/fruity, but not overall unpleasant. What is the manufacture date on those smack packs? Once I recultured some left over starter I stored in a stubby in the fridge for around a year (probably not the best way to store yeast) and when I put it in a starter it was throwing off loads of sulphur for the first 12 or so hours, then began to smell more like my usual starters. Fermented the brew fine, but I think as the yeast was old and there were less viable cells there were a few off smells in the early stages.

 

[bum]

I've had oxidised starters from leaving them to finish out on the stirplate, they smell "off".

I've also fermented a batch with one. They smell "off" too.

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

There's no comment about what's on top of the flask while cooling? The foil I hope. Also how is it chilled? Quickly in an ice bath, or on the bench? Could also be the dregs from the smack pack, what happens to the majority of it? Why are the dregs used? How are they handled?

Foil is left on top throught the entire process.
Chilled in a bucket of cold water, refilled with cold water as it heats.
The rest of the smack pack goes into a fermenter with wort, won't use my starters untill I'm happy with them... don't want to spoil a batch.

Is PBW a rinse off sanitiser, or just a cleaner ? A sparay of iodofor on everything, even pre-boil, never goes astray.

PBW is just a cleaner. Will start Starsan'ing them and boiling with the wort.

Try one day eating lots of yeast and see how appetising the stuff is. You may get different smells with different yeasts. /snip/ It won't taste great either but it will taste like fresh yeast

Will give it a try, only one way to learn i guess.

As Manticle says, get used to the smell and taste of yeast, easy to pick "off" yeast once you know how healthy yeast smells/tastes, different strains have slightly different aromas and tastes.

How long do you run the stirplate, once the starter has reached full krausen, turn it off - oxidised starter maybe?

Stirplate is run to high krausen then stepped up or just tasted and flushed.

those smack packs dont smell too appetising when you pitch em thats for sure.

They smell better than my starters though

Mine usually smell bready/fruity, but not overall unpleasant. What is the manufacture date on those smack packs?

Can't recall the manufacture date, but the yeast in my fermenter from the same pack smells great.

 

[King Brown]

Can't recall the manufacture date, but the yeast in my fermenter from the same pack smells great.

The batch I fermented out with that old yeast turned out great as well, just the starter smelt like a fart for the first 12 or so hours.

As the others stated oxidisation could be another thing, which shouldn't effect the quality of your beer unless you make very big starters (and if you were making big starters it won't effect your brew if you only pitch the trub)

Hard to pinpoint the exact problem without knowing what exactly your starters smell like, if your beers aren't having any problems it's possible that there's no problem with them at all.

 

[dr K]

Oxidation??
You want and need oxygen in your starter.
Oh, stop smelling it, infection risk.
Assuming you are starting a full vial or smack pack you will not get a lot of fermentation activivity, these beasts are designed for 18 litres of wort so the sugars in your 500ml will get expended pretty quickly, a starter is realy about getting a head start not tripling your yeast cell count..the smell you get from your fermentor is full on fermentation, not just a starter (think of a starter as a sour dough culture)
If your yeast is relatively fresh then (less than 6 months) then you probably need about 1500ml of starter to get it it up, of course even if your yeast is only 3 months old you still neeed a starter, and you really even then should be looking at at least a litre.

Relax.

K

EDIT: When I spoke of tripling yeast cell count I was referring making a triple batch from a single vial just with a single step start....clearly if your original cell count is down (which it will be as the culture ages) then you need to boost it up.