Wheat Yeast Question - Banana Wanted!

[ForkBoy]

Hi,

Planning a basic weizen with WLP300 and grist of 50% Wheat / 50% pils.

The yeast was taken from the slurry of a previous batch (another brewers), but the banana profile was low to non-existent in the finished beer - it was fermented at 18C pitching a full vial.

I want to raise the banana profile in my brew - what would be the best way to do this? Ferment at 22C? Underpitch the yeast?

Any help much appreciated...

 

[Screwtop]

Hi,

Planning a basic weizen with WLP300 and grist of 50% Wheat / 50% pils.

The yeast was taken from the slurry of a previous batch (another brewers), but the banana profile was low to non-existent in the finished beer - it was fermented at 18C pitching a full vial.

I want to raise the banana profile in my brew - what would be the best way to do this? Ferment at 22C? Underpitch the yeast?

Any help much appreciated...

Yep and er Yep. Have tried three hefe wheat strains and find the best results when looking for the banana/clove esters using Wyeast 3068.

 

[JLB]

Hi
I would start fermention low say 16c,17 and let it rise up to 22,23 over a couple of days and hold it there till fermentation is complete.

You should get a good balance of flavours with more banana,but higher temps will result in more banana just dont let it start high cause you'll get to much banana and other undesirable flavours..

cheers..

 

[Linz]

When you fell over is your grain bill..........

Raise the amount of wheat malt in the recipe.

Ive done a 70% wheat/30% barley and got plenty of banana at 19oC( thanks Trev!!) with the WLP300. I also used a couple of handfuls of rice hulls to, but I recirc my mash

The Wheat malt has the precursor that helps the yeast create the banana ester.....BUT have good control on your temps otherwise you're gunna be drinking banana lollies for a while...

 

[Kai]

What's the banana precursor? I know (or I think) wheat is high in 4VG precursor which gives the clove flavour but I've never heard about banana. Regardless, 50% wheat is more than ample.

As has already been mentioned, it's the fermentation management that matters most even if the previous batch didn't pump out the banana.

 

[Linz]

Kai you're correct...The wheat malt DOES NOT have the banana precusor..it is the 4VG for the clove/phenolic.


BUT

The 70%wheat/30% barley is the classic recipe for the Munich style Hefe Weissbier

the banana ester is iso-amyl acetate, a fermentation by-product so ferment temp is key combined with the yeast strain choice

 

[Hargie]

.....Wyeast 3068 or WhiteLabs 380 hefe iv....




.....they are both



....if you look after the mash & ferm temps...

 

[Trent]

I could be wrong, but....
I am pretty sure that underpitching is the answer to getting banana in your wheat's, as IIRC, yeast puts out esters not just when it is fermenting warm, but also as it is reproducing. I got a fair bit of banana in a recent wheat by stepping up a small amount of yeast (bottom covered on a specimen jar) in 50ml wort to wake it up, then to 500ml wort, and pitched that into a 25L brew, and aerated really well. The enxt brew, I repitched a small amount of the primary yeast, and found that I ended up with more clove than banana, so I am fairly convinced that underpitching is the answer, but as I said before, I could be wrong! It is only my experience, so by no means a definitive result, but I had discussed getting the banana a bit with Les the Weizguy, and it was at his suggestion I underpitched and aerrated well. I think I fermented at 20-22C. I have also heard several other sources say that stressing out wheat yeast can be benificial, so it may be a place to start?
Best of luck
Trent

 

[newguy]

I attended a yeast talk given by Dave Logsdon, owner of Wyeast. He said that their 3068 strain produced the most banana esters when the wort was not oxygenated. This really rang a bell with me because the first time I made a weizen was when I was quite new to brewing and it had a fantastic banana character. I certainly didn't oxygenate well back then, but I did pitch healthy sized starters. The weizens since that first had poor banana esters.

With this information in mind, I've since churned out a few banana-laden weizens by being careful not to splash the wort too much before pitching. I still pitch huge starters.

Formulate your recipe to shoot for 10 - 12 IBUs all from bittering hops (no flavour or aroma) to allow the malt, phenols and esters to shine through.

One last observation - ferment at about 20 - 22C. Warmer than that, and you'll get too much clove character.

 

[ForkBoy]

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

I stumbled across this interesting read on how to produce esters for a wheat.

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/esters.html

It reads that there are three ways to increase esters (in line with what some have mentioned above)

1. underpitch; or
2. underoxygenate; or
3. pitch and ferment high

Points 1 and 2 are more dangerous as they can produce byproducts you don't really want.

So... I might try a little of all these - pitch and ferment at 20-22, pitch less than I normally do and oxygenate a little less than I normally do.

 

[Hubby]

Interesting idea about oxgenation ... might try that with my next batch.

Also, consider having a crack using Wyeast 3638.

 

[Weizguy]

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

I stumbled across this interesting read on how to produce esters for a wheat.

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/esters.html

It reads that there are three ways to increase esters (in line with what some have mentioned above)

1. underpitch; or
2. underoxygenate; or
3. pitch and ferment high

Points 1 and 2 are more dangerous as they can produce byproducts you don't really want.

So... I might try a little of all these - pitch and ferment at 20-22, pitch less than I normally do and oxygenate a little less than I normally do.

My experience indicates all 3 of these to be correct. I recently (few months ago now) split a batch and both underpitched and under-aerated half of the wort. I also fermented it on a heat pad, after the main ferment was complete - say 5 days (Oops, now MHB is gonna chastise me for the heat pad...it was science, Mark). Stephen can back me up that the mistreated beer had the higher banana flava and was a nicer, more drinkable beer.

A number of previous beers (some of my early weizens), fermented with W3056 (a blend of wheat and ale yeast which I suspect is W3068 and W1056) were pitched normally, took off like a champion, and were fermented at up to 28-30C. The resultant beer was bananically well flavoured.
Whether this was a mistake, or serendipity, I'm now the converted weizen man that you know today.

...Oh, and the experimental beers. What happened to them, you say! Ah the tale is not all happy, coz they were both open-fermented and I forgot to cap properly after primary ferment. I can tell you that both have an acetic contamination, but only the well-pitched version is acetically undrinkable. Anyone want some wheat beer vinegar? Prob great for fish and chips, with a decent weizen on the side. Prob best to limit the offer to locals and customers of my lhbs (for pickup purposes), but if U wanna pay postage...pm me.

Seth out

 

[Norsman]

The 2nd last brew I did was a hefe, and it had bananas literally by the clusters. Everything I have read here looks right... This is what I did:

1. Dough-in at 40-45*C, this encourages production of the banana precursor (or so my local brewer told me)
2. Pitch at a high temp... I think I pitched at 28*C
3. Ferment high... Mine was steady at about 24*C

Good luck.

 

[Screwtop]

Attended the lecture given by Dave Logsden of Wyeast at 152 Oxford in Brisbane last year, he explained the benefit of under pitching yeast for certain styles such as Hefe Weizen and also some of the English styles where fruitiness was desired. He explained that stressing the yeast by underpitching was more beneficial than warmer temps in producing the fruity esthers, and that fermenting at around 20C gave stable performance.

 

[tangent]

40-45*C

i think that's the acid rest for clove production.

 

[Norsman]

i think that's the acid rest for clove production.

Hey tangent, not too sure on those temps myself, just going on some info from the local micro. Come to think of it I think he may have said for extra 'fruitieness' dough in at ~43*C.

If ~43ish is clove do you know what banana is?

 

[tangent]

like said above, underpitch and a warmer ferment.

edit - i'd still use the old wheat beer rule of pitching low temp and letting it warm up itself.