What's the highest PSI that's safe for Harris 601 CO2 Regulator?

[Kalyori]

I've got the Harris 601 CO2 Regulator and I'm wanting to know how high I can set the PSI safely. It's for plain soda water, and ideally I'd like something around 80 or 90, however it goes into the red at 60 on the dial and that seems ominous. Can you safely take it up to 60, 70, 80, etc. Or are you supposed to stay out of the red?

If it can go that high, I may look into the duel regulator that Harris has, so I can gas my kegs up at 80 PSI and dispense at ~10 PSI.

Appreciate any input.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Reading your link it says it has an internal safety release valve so I wouldn't be worrying about the pressure too much.

 

[Kalyori]

Thanks for your reply.

Does that mean if I set the pressure too high, it'll drop back down to what's safe?
Setting it too high isn't going to make it explode or something?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

No it means if the pressure gets to high, it will automatically release the pressure.

 

[MHB]

No it means if the pressure gets to high, it will automatically release the pressure.

And keep releasing the pressure until your bottle is empty!
You might want to have a look at the pressure rating on your kegs to.
Most CO2 regulators are rated to deliver around 400kPa - if you want that in PSI work it out for your self - or in most cases you will find the dial has two scales.
Mark

 

[wide eyed and legless]

It states that it is a re seating relief valve so should that not close once any excess pressure is released?

 

[Kalyori]

And keep releasing the pressure until your bottle is empty!
You might want to have a look at the pressure rating on your kegs to.
Most CO2 regulators are rated to deliver around 400kPa - if you want that in PSI work it out for your self - or in most cases you will find the dial has two scales.
Mark

The kegs are rated for 900kPa/130 PSI. The regulator is 400kPa/58 PSI. Google helps me out with the conversions

I'm looking at getting a Harris 825 adaptor which can do 1000kPa and connecting it to my 601. That way I can dispense at 10 PSI whilst gassing at 90 PSI.

Do you need better quality lines for higher pressures or do they just work fine with various pressures?

 

[MHB]

It states that it is a re seating relief valve so should that not close once any excess pressure is released?

Unless you have the pressure set above the relief pressure, in which case it will just keep on relieving itself until there is no gas left.

The kegs are rated for 900kPa/130 PSI. The regulator is 400kPa/58 PSI. Google helps me out with the conversions
I'm looking at getting a Harris 825 adaptor which can do 1000kPa and connecting it to my 601. That way I can dispense at 10 PSI whilst gassing at 90 PSI.
Do you need better quality lines for higher pressures or do they just work fine with various pressures?

I doubt the PRV in your keg will be anywhere near 900kPa, that 900kPa is what the keg will hold before it bursts, I would be surprised if relief valve will hold half of that.
Why would you want to pressurise to 900kPa anyway? at 30oC that would be giving you something 12g/L of CO2 (~6 Volumes), really way more than you would want.
Gassing hot beer is really slow, even with a sinter (airstone), to force carbonate you really want the beer cold, if the beer is cold 400kPa is way more than you need.... Cant see where you at trying to go.
As for the lines, any answer other than "Check the pressure rating" is just guess work
Have a look at the Carbonation Tables, and the equation on Braukaiser,
I like metric (and am old enough to know why) in metric the units are degrees Celsius (oC) and kPa giving dissolved CO2 in g/L
Mark

 

[Kalyori]

Unless you have the pressure set above the relief pressure, in which case it will just keep on relieving itself until there is no gas left.

I doubt the PRV in your keg will be anywhere near 900kPa, that 900kPa is what the keg will hold before it bursts, I would be surprised if relief valve will hold half of that.
Why would you want to pressurise to 900kPa anyway? at 30oC that would be giving you something 12g/L of CO2 (~6 Volumes), really way more than you would want.
Gassing hot beer is really slow, even with a sinter (airstone), to force carbonate you really want the beer cold, if the beer is cold 400kPa is way more than you need.... Cant see where you at trying to go.
As for the lines, any answer other than "Check the pressure rating" is just guess work
Have a look at the Carbonation Tables, and the equation on Braukaiser,
I like metric (and am old enough to know why) in metric the units are degrees Celsius (oC) and kPa giving dissolved CO2 in g/L
Mark

Thanks. It needs to be high because we're gassing soda water not beer. At 30 PSI it's very slightly sparkling after 2 days which is the minimum it needs before being drinkable, but 3 days is better. At 90 PSI the process will speed up a whole lot.

To clarify, are you saying that the maximum working pressure of 130 PSI is not what the keg can actually handle?

EDIT: The temperature of the water is ~5c

 

[MHB]

Ask the question in metric and I will be happy to do the calculations, simply couldn't be arsed working in pounds, shillings and pence (yep, I can remember them to (just), just they suck just as bad as imperial units of measure).

 

[Kalyori]

Ask the question in metric and I will be happy to do the calculations, simply couldn't be arsed working in pounds, shillings and pence (yep, I can remember them to (just), just they suck just as bad as imperial units of measure).

So currently gassing at 206 kPa, but want to gas at 620 kPa. Keg says its maximum working pressure is 900 kPa.

 

[wynnum1]

http://www.probrewer.com/library/kegs/keg-safety/
5. Burst pressure – Stainless steel kegs are rated for an internal pressure of at least 60 to 90 PSI without deformation, with a burst pressure of at least 300 PSI. The safety factors for burst pressure is usually about three to four, so the new keg does not actually rupture until it is exposed to 1000 PSI internal pressure or more. A lot of the new kegs can be purchased with a special pressure relief-valve in the form of a burst disc, which is a small circle stamp on the bottom dome of the keg, which is designed to break out at a certain design pressure to prevent the valve from becoming the weakest point of the pressure vessel. Never intentionally pressurize the keg to more than the design pressure using compressed air, to prevent damage to the keg or worse injuring yourself or innocent bystanders. The reason for this is that while liquid is incompressible, air can be compressed to the point of becoming very dangerous, like a rocket or a torpedo. When de-denting kegs to remove volume impacting dents, it has to be done using liquid and not air, and this procedure should only be done by professional keg service companies.

 

[Kev R]

I have a keg of water forced carbed at 30 psi for 1 or 2 min at 1degc. Hooked up to 15 psi and it has heaps of carbonation.

 

[MHB]

http://www.probrewer.com/library/kegs/keg-safety/
5. Burst pressure – Stainless steel kegs are rated for an internal pressure of at least 60 to 90 PSI without deformation, with a burst pressure of at least 300 PSI. The safety factors for burst pressure is usually about three to four, so the new keg does not actually rupture until it is exposed to 1000 PSI internal pressure or more. A lot of the new kegs can be purchased with a special pressure relief-valve in the form of a burst disc, which is a small circle stamp on the bottom dome of the keg, which is designed to break out at a certain design pressure to prevent the valve from becoming the weakest point of the pressure vessel. Never intentionally pressurize the keg to more than the design pressure using compressed air, to prevent damage to the keg or worse injuring yourself or innocent bystanders. The reason for this is that while liquid is incompressible, air can be compressed to the point of becoming very dangerous, like a rocket or a torpedo. When de-denting kegs to remove volume impacting dents, it has to be done using liquid and not air, and this procedure should only be done by professional keg service companies.

That refers to commercial kegs, that don't have a PRV as part of the design - it's all true, just not directly applicable to a Corny keg whish is what I think we are talking about here.

Lets go back to getting the right amount of fizz into Soda Water
At a given temperature and pressure, given time a known (fixed) amount of CO2 will go into solution, the equation in the Braukaiser link above will give you the right answer for beer, water under the same conditions will take up slightly more CO2, but not much more so lets just use the equation and tables we have. This amount is called the Equilibrium Point
The other key components are Time and Contact Surface Area.
The more surface area exposed to pressure the faster the equilibrium is reached.
A keg being around 200mm in diameter presents about 0.0314m^2, if you put an airstone in the bottom of the keg and bubbled the CO2 through the sinter you would be creating millions of small bubbles with lots of extra (the 200mm dia is still there to) surface area for the CO2 to diffuse through and go into solution.
Soda water typically has 6-8g/L
So using the equation from Braukaiser at ~5oC you need about ~125kPa to get 6g/L and ~200kPa to get 8g/L
Well within your current reg's capacity. Which just leaves Time.
Cranking up the pressure will force the CO2 into solution faster - downside is you will likely overshoot, it's very hard to predict accurately.
Other option is to increase the surface area, one common way to do this is to shake the keg, get it cold, sit down, balance the keg across your leg and rock it back and forward until you stop hearing gas going in.
Another is to put an airstone in the bottom of the keg and gas it through the airstone - you can get a spare hatch with a line and airstone fitted, You could extend the short diptube on the gas in with some food grade line and an airstone... lots of options.

With an airstone, and the right pressure setting you should be able to accurately and repeatedly be able to get exactly the amount of dissolved CO2 you want, in less than an hour.
Because you are limiting the pressure to exactly what you want you wont over carbonate, it is a good idea to start the CO2 flowing with the PRV open to displace any air, after a couple of minutes close the PRV and let the keg reach its target pressure, best to leave it overnight, just to make sure it's fully equilibrated and enjoy.

Personally I add a bit of Potassium Bicarbonate (look at a Schweppes Soda water label, that's the Mineral Salt), modifies the pH and tastes way better.
Mark

 

[Kalyori]

Thanks for replies everyone!

http://www.probrewer.com/library/kegs/keg-safety/
That refers to commercial kegs, that don't have a PRV as part of the design - it's all true, just not directly applicable to a Corny keg whish is what I think we are talking about here.

Lets go back to getting the right amount of fizz into Soda Water
At a given temperature and pressure, given time a known (fixed) amount of CO2 will go into solution, the equation in the Braukaiser link above will give you the right answer for beer, water under the same conditions will take up slightly more CO2, but not much more so lets just use the equation and tables we have. This amount is called the Equilibrium Point
The other key components are Time and Contact Surface Area.
The more surface area exposed to pressure the faster the equilibrium is reached.
A keg being around 200mm in diameter presents about 0.0314m^2, if you put an airstone in the bottom of the keg and bubbled the CO2 through the sinter you would be creating millions of small bubbles with lots of extra (the 200mm dia is still there to) surface area for the CO2 to diffuse through and go into solution.
Soda water typically has 6-8g/L
So using the equation from Braukaiser at ~5oC you need about ~125kPa to get 6g/L and ~200kPa to get 8g/L
Well within your current reg's capacity. Which just leaves Time.
Cranking up the pressure will force the CO2 into solution faster - downside is you will likely overshoot, it's very hard to predict accurately.
Other option is to increase the surface area, one common way to do this is to shake the keg, get it cold, sit down, balance the keg across your leg and rock it back and forward until you stop hearing gas going in.
Another is to put an airstone in the bottom of the keg and gas it through the airstone - you can get a spare hatch with a line and airstone fitted, You could extend the short diptube on the gas in with some food grade line and an airstone... lots of options.

With an airstone, and the right pressure setting you should be able to accurately and repeatedly be able to get exactly the amount of dissolved CO2 you want, in less than an hour.
Because you are limiting the pressure to exactly what you want you wont over carbonate, it is a good idea to start the CO2 flowing with the PRV open to displace any air, after a couple of minutes close the PRV and let the keg reach its target pressure, best to leave it overnight, just to make sure it's fully equilibrated and enjoy.

Personally I add a bit of Potassium Bicarbonate (look at a Schweppes Soda water label, that's the Mineral Salt), modifies the pH and tastes way better.
Mark

Yeah when we first got the system we tried various methods, including rocking it for 30-45 minutes, and we tried using an airstone for about 30 minutes as well. The carbonation after that wasn't good at all. And it's not very practical considering we go through a 19L keg every 24-36 hours. EDIT: If it's relevant, we have 3 of these kegs.

Do you mean to leave the hatch with the airstone on for the entire night?

Considering that after 3 days of carbonation at 30 PSI, it's acceptable, then I'm assuming at 90 it may get to that point after a day which would be great as it would carbonate to an acceptable level faster than we can drink it without any sort of regular intervention.

 

[MHB]

Yes you want all the gas going in to go through the airstone, being in small bubbles it will go into solution faster.
One way is to set up aa keg with the airstone, then make up a jumper (two Black/Liquid disconnects) so you are transferring from bottom to bottom of a keg.
Once the water is carbonated, pressurise an empty keg to the same pressure as the carbonating keg, hook up the jumper, then ease the PRV, the carbonated water will flow until the pressures equalise, keep easing the PRV every couple of minutes until all the water is transferred (Counter Pressure Filling, keeps the fizz in the water). Refill the Carbonating keg and start again.

Yes it will happen faster at higher pressure, but surface area and temperature is more likely to be the limiting factors, you simply cant carbonate warm water (well not without some very specialised and expensive equipment).
Not sure if you mean you have 3 kegs, or three with carbonating hatches, if the latter you can set up a couple of carbonators.
FFS learn metric, all the calculations are done in metric, then in unenlightened countries they convert so silly non-system.
Mark

 

[Kalyori]

Yes you want all the gas going in to go through the airstone, being in small bubbles it will go into solution faster.
One way is to set up aa keg with the airstone, then make up a jumper (two Black/Liquid disconnects) so you are transferring from bottom to bottom of a keg.
Once the water is carbonated, pressurise an empty keg to the same pressure as the carbonating keg, hook up the jumper, then ease the PRV, the carbonated water will flow until the pressures equalise, keep easing the PRV every couple of minutes until all the water is transferred (Counter Pressure Filling, keeps the fizz in the water). Refill the Carbonating keg and start again.

Yes it will happen faster at higher pressure, but surface area and temperature is more likely to be the limiting factors, you simply cant carbonate warm water (well not without some very specialised and expensive equipment).
Not sure if you mean you have 3 kegs, or three with carbonating hatches, if the latter you can set up a couple of carbonators.
FFS learn metric, all the calculations are done in metric, then in unenlightened countries they convert so silly non-system.
Mark

Thanks for the info. I could try leaving one connected with the airstone and see if it improves the carbonation compared to the other two. We have all 3 of them gassing simultaneously.

The temperature is good, I think, at ~5c.

Hahahaha I guess whatever I was first introduced to was PSI and it's on my regulator so I'm used to it.

 

[malt and barley blues]

When I was at school we were taught in poles perches roods rods furlongs, thank god the barley corn measurement had already gone. I often wonder how they built the magnificent buildings using these measurements and bits of knotted string. Back to PSI and kilo-pascals.

 

[wynnum1]

When I was at school we were taught in poles perches roods rods furlongs, thank god the barley corn measurement had already gone. I often wonder how they built the magnificent buildings using these measurements and bits of knotted string. Back to PSI and kilo-pascals.

They still use bushel for grain sold in US even on the ABC in Australia can not workout why they do not convert to metric.