What Is The Next Step Up From K&k?

[TasChris]

Hi all,
like many other brewers I had a slow but steady progression to AG
Kit and kilo of sugar
Kit and kilo dry malt extract
Kit and malt and extra hops and liquid yeast
Grumpy's master brew then extra brews etc with liquid yeast
AG
I think its good to go thru the steps as it taught me what effect each step made and improved my beer along the way. The main driver was I wanted to learn more about the process and the side effect was an improvement in my beer.

Are my beers better now than when I K+Ked??
Definately YES, but if I brewed a K+K now it would be better than my old K+K as my processes and techniques are far better.

I have always veiwed brewing as a cheap but enjoyable hobby which I can sink my teeth into and exercise my mind and creativity and as a bonus I produce beer, which I love.

With regard to drinking mega swill, K+K, extract or AG, I drink and enjoy any, some or all of them. It depends what I am after.

Sometimes when I read I want to read Tolstoy but some days I want to read Asterix the Gaul. It depends what I am after

Some of my most enjoyable drinking experiences have as much to do with the company, atmosphere and location than with the quality of beer, however my first AG beer from my own keg, sitting on the porch at home is probably up at the top of the heap.

Every six months or so the KK Vs AG argument seems to rear its head and while it often starts in fun always seems to get heated pretty quick and always goes nowhere.

Chris

 

[PostModern]

Hi all,
like many other brewers I had a slow but steady progression to AG
Kit and kilo of sugar
Kit and kilo dry malt extract
Kit and malt and extra hops and liquid yeast
Grumpy's master brew then extra brews etc with liquid yeast
AG
I think its good to go thru the steps as it taught me what effect each step made and improved my beer along the way. The main driver was I wanted to learn more about the process and the side effect was an improvement in my beer.

Are my beers better now than when I K+Ked??
Definately YES, but if I brewed a K+K now it would be better than my old K+K as my processes and techniques are far better.

I have always veiwed brewing as a cheap but enjoyable hobby which I can sink my teeth into and exercise my mind and creativity and as a bonus I produce beer, which I love.

With regard to drinking mega swill, K+K, extract or AG, I drink and enjoy any, some or all of them. It depends what I am after.

Sometimes when I read I want to read Tolstoy but some days I want to read Asterix the Gaul. It depends what I am after

Some of my most enjoyable drinking experiences have as much to do with the company, atmosphere and location than with the quality of beer, however my first AG beer from my own keg, sitting on the porch at home is probably up at the top of the heap.

Every six months or so the KK Vs AG argument seems to rear its head and while it often starts in fun always seems to get heated pretty quick and always goes nowhere.

Chris

I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks

 

[TasChris]

I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks

Yes

 

[muckey]

When you taste the quality of beer that comes from adding one kg of grain,
well the path to the dark side opens to you.

wise words!

I didn't add grain in my kit and bit experiments but having tasted it in others and experiencing what it gives to the beer, was 1 of the things that encouraged me on my "Beer Quest"

K&K is a good starting point - substituting malt for sugar certainly is a first step, experimenting with hops and grains are very possible and enable some very good beers to be made very easily. Its easy to get a brew kit and start with a kit and I've known several people who never get any further. but I think that kits lend themselves to experimentation. The flavour profile in most kits seems to be low enough that small recipe changes can make big differences.

Having now finally stepped up to AG I have no intention of going back to kits if I can possibly help it, simply because I want to produce the beer I like. I certainly do not denegrate anyones kit beer. I'm happy to offer suggestions but understand that any suggestion is always biased to MY taste and may be completely dismissed. I always resisted AG brewing due to a lack of time - I have to make an effort to fit a brew day into everything else I need to do.

Try a grain steep and experience the different flavours to be had. there are many different specialty grains available and they all have different qualities.

The sky is the limit. Don't be daunted by those who suggest that AG is the only option - its NOT. On the other side if you are happy with the beer you make then dont change it because someone else doesn't like it, make the change because you want to.

find a good kit or good malt extract - one that you know and brew consistantly and start making changes. Try a hop boil and see how it changes the flavour, substitue some extra malt and even do a grain steep, try dry hopping. If you use your well known brew as a baseline you'll quickly pick up the changes and get to know all the ingredients that are available and then if you do decide to become an AG brewer, you'll be well on your way to knowing what kind of AG recipe you are looking for. If along the way you find the brew you're happy with you can stick with it.

Brewing is an adventure, its about discovering flavours and styles and finding the ones YOU enjoy!

 

[antains]

I'll summarise this wall of text to "AG is better". Thanks

Alright, alright. Geez! As soon as the baby bonus comes in, I'll tell the missus, "No. We're not getting a plasma. We're setting up for AG!" :lol:

Incidentally, the AG starter guide that's here, is that current? I couldn't quite follow where the updated version went to or if this was it.



Edit: typo.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

It's taken me three years of AG brewing (and few of K&K before that) to realise that the whole K&K vs AG argument is utterly secondary. The difference between good beer and bad beer isn't made in the Mash Tun or in the Tin... its made in the fermentor.

Trying for the best beer in the world is an admirable goal, but for me, the thing that should be foremost in the mind of all but the best homebrewers, is not how to make "great" beer, but how to avoid making bad beer. I dunno about you, but I find beer to be an inherently pleasant tasting thing - if it is made with a minimum of faults, it will taste good.

If you use a nice fresh kit, follow some of the basic advice you can find on this forum for improving that kit and have a well controlled fermentation... fairly decent beer will be the result. If you make a mash with good quality ingredients, and you have a well controlled fermentation - decent tasting beer will be the result.

If you do either of those things and have a lousy fermentation regime - you are very likely to make actually bad tasting beer, no matter how good your wort production process was.

So for me the whole "go AG - the difference will be amazing..." argument is conditional. It might be, but if you didn't first ask whether the brewer you are talking to has a temperature controlled fermentation set-up and a good understanding of yeast wrangling... then it also might just be wasting their time and money.

Fermenting is what K&Kers do - they have minimal input into the wort production process, so they get to concentrate on the fermentation aspect. They get to learn how yeast behaves, how fermentation time & temperature effects their beer. AG brewers generally say how easy the process of mashing is, and they are right. So the vast majority of the skills involved in making a great beer, can be learned by brewing K&K. Without the need for 6-8hr brewdays and hundreds of dollars of extra equipment. If you are incapable of making a great tasting kit beer, then you are going to be equally incapable of making a great tasting AG beer.

So by all means shout to the rooftops how wonderful AG beer can be, it can!! But don't forget that it can also be bloody woeful. Stamping out the bad is so much more important than aiming for the good ... try shouting to the world about how wonderful temperature controlled brewing is... not nearly as sexy, but so much more likely to result in a real improvement in the beer.

AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.

 

[Katherine]

AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.

I like what you have to say and read most of your posts... but I don't agree with that. Who's says its a waste of time?

 

[staggalee]

It's taken me three years of AG brewing (and few of K&K before that) to realise that the whole K&K vs AG argument is utterly secondary. The difference between good beer and bad beer isn't made in the Mash Tun or in the Tin... its made in the fermentor.

Trying for the best beer in the world is an admirable goal, but for me, the thing that should be foremost in the mind of all but the best homebrewers, is not how to make "great" beer, but how to avoid making bad beer. I dunno about you, but I find beer to be an inherently pleasant tasting thing - if it is made with a minimum of faults, it will taste good.

If you use a nice fresh kit, follow some of the basic advice you can find on this forum for improving that kit and have a well controlled fermentation... fairly decent beer will be the result. If you make a mash with good quality ingredients, and you have a well controlled fermentation - decent tasting beer will be the result.

If you do either of those things and have a lousy fermentation regime - you are very likely to make actually bad tasting beer, no matter how good your wort production process was.

So for me the whole "go AG - the difference will be amazing..." argument is conditional. It might be, but if you didn't first ask whether the brewer you are talking to has a temperature controlled fermentation set-up and a good understanding of yeast wrangling... then it also might just be wasting their time and money.

Fermenting is what K&Kers do - they have minimal input into the wort production process, so they get to concentrate on the fermentation aspect. They get to learn how yeast behaves, how fermentation time & temperature effects their beer. AG brewers generally say how easy the process of mashing is, and they are right. So the vast majority of the skills involved in making a great beer, can be learned by brewing K&K. Without the need for 6-8hr brewdays and hundreds of dollars of extra equipment. If you are incapable of making a great tasting kit beer, then you are going to be equally incapable of making a great tasting AG beer.

So by all means shout to the rooftops how wonderful AG beer can be, it can!! But don't forget that it can also be bloody woeful. Stamping out the bad is so much more important than aiming for the good ... try shouting to the world about how wonderful temperature controlled brewing is... not nearly as sexy, but so much more likely to result in a real improvement in the beer.

AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.

I`m quite neutral about the whole subject, but just going by your last paragraph above, doesn`t that mean everyone who is now making AG, is wasting their time with a mash tun, unless they continually made faultless kits previously?
There must have been a lot of gun brewers making kits if that is the case?

stagga.

good post anyway, TB.

 

[PostModern]

Big post there TB. Another PoMo wall of text translation:

Fermentation control is important too.

Yes. I agree. First things we tell all the n00bs around here: Sanitise, ferment at right temp, pitch enough yeast.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I`m quite neutral about the whole subject, but just going by your last paragraph above, doesn`t that mean everyone who is now making AG, is wasting their time with a mash tun, unless they continually made faultless kits previously?
There must have been a lot of gun brewers making kits if that is the case?

stagga.

good post anyway, TB.

well... as much as it constitutes poking the angry bear with a stick to say this - yeah, it really kinda sorta does mean that.

To use myself as an example - I entered 12 different beers into the comps this year, some of them did quite well, some of them were mid range; and a few of them were terrible.

Why - most of the negative comments were around fermentation issues. Sure, on the better beers there were little faults and whatnot that were related to recipe and to mash technique, but they were generally quite decent beers that could be improved. The "bad" beers, were from fermentation flaws, and there were also enough low level fermentation flaws mentioned in even the good beers, that I know I have some issues.

The phrase "waste of time" was quite deliberate, I can fix my fermentation issues by brewing AG and concentrating - but if I was serious about making my beer better whilst wasting the least time and effort. I would put down the mash paddle for 6 months and crank through a bunch of K&K (or fresh wort I suppose) brews and nail down those fermentation issues. When the kits were coming out flawless - back to the mash tun.

I'm unlikely to actually do that of course, I am far too stubborn and besides I happen to really enjoy the AG process (a thing mostly unmentioned so far... AG is actually a lot of fun) - but if I were truly on an uncompromising beer improvement quest - my mash tun actually would be a waste of time.

And I don't think I am alone

 

[fergi]

well being a K&K i dont want to get into the war of what is better , K&K or AG, its obvious all grain made correctly and with a good recipe is a better finished product, i would love to be making all grain.but i havent got all the gear and also i dont at the moment feel like putting the time into it. however i have tasted a lot of fantastic K&K beers and a lot of horrible all grain beers, now i know that some people here say that a badly made all grain is still better than a good K&K, well let me just say if thats what you think get your head out of the sand. and as far as comparing instant coffee to "REAL" coffee well i hate the taste of real coffee . but you know what, its just as well that we all have different tastes otherwise we would all be drinking the same bloody tasting beer as well. great post by thirsty Boy and brings a controlled unbiased comment to this posting, however in saying all this i will one day get around to all grain, but in the mean time i really enjoy some of the great K&K beers that i make, i also hate some of the crap ones that i make, and i am sure that when i go all grain", i will enjoy some of the great beers that i will make and hate some of the crap beers that i will make, once again Thirsty boy great post
cheers
fergi

 

[staggalee]

well put, TB.
While you probably wouldn`t be alone, you probably would be one of the few to say so.

stagga.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Big post there TB. Another PoMo wall of text translation:

Fermentation control is important too.

Yes. I agree. First things we tell all the n00bs around here: Sanitise, ferment at right temp, pitch enough yeast.

I will try to be brief then.

I disagree. I don't think fermentation control is "important too" - I think it is much much more important than AG

thus all the extra explanatory words.....


edit: oh and I forgot...

 

[PostModern]

Fair enough. Amazing how the whole context changes by one little word.

You are of course right. I've made good kit beers and count yeast management high on my list of procedural importance. I actually filled my first keg with a Cascade Pale kit and it was great with just the kit, some DME, dextrose and a fistfull of some hop or other. Good yeast and fermentation control made it a great beer.

 

[TasChris]

:icon_offtopic:
Perhaps PoMo you have hit on a potential new web site to partner babelfish
Babelfish to translate foreign languages into English
PoMofish to translate verbose English into more concise English

Chris

 

[Jase71]

Alright, alright. Geez! As soon as the baby bonus comes in, I'll tell the missus, "No. We're not getting a plasma. We're setting up for AG!" :lol:

I'm so glad my tax money is paying for your personal entertainment <_<

AG is a pinnacle - but to be perfectly honest, until you are churning out faultless kit beer after faultless kit beer, and your palate is well enough schooled to actually know..... a mash tun is just about a waste of time.

Which brings me back to my earlier query way back in the beginning. Why is it that some commercial microbreweries attached to pubs can churn out beer that, once it gets poured into my glass, hovers between average and absolute crap, yet on the other hand I can experience consistently great beers out of my neighbours wide & varied range being made exclusively with kits & bits - not even talking extract brewing here...... I suspect that I can answer my own question - freshness ? In the case of one pub quite close to my house, being a 'knockabout' blokey pub, most of the locals bypass the range of in-house beers entirely. And they don't bottle AFAIK, so perhaps the beer's often sitting around for several months too many in the keg. Thoughts anyone ?

This pub (and head brewer) in question can produce a great beer, I've had a chocolate porter there that blew my mind, and as a rule ive never enjoyed dark beers, but this one was to die for. Sadly, on subsequent visits I couldn't even finish my glass, it was that bad.

EDIT: A few words so as not to sound like I'm stereotyping all pub microbreweries, a lot of who do produce fine beers.

 

[Fermented]

I have to agree with Jase71.

There have been a few microbreweries in pubs that I have been to over the years. The results at first seem to be sterling but later product is less so. Is it complacency on the part of the brewer or is there some kind of MRSA-ish bug that gets a foothold in breweries and roots the product?

I did the complete range at Lord Nelsons last weekend (a la vertical tasting) and I remember them to have been much better in the past. Or are my tastebuds victims of nostalgic sensations?

Cheers - Fermented.

EDIT: Refined a statement.

 

[antains]

I'm so glad my tax money is paying for your personal entertainment <_<

Don't worry about your money. I'm content with what I have.

 

[dr K]

TB

And I don't think I am alone

No TB, you are not.

I must say that I am rather fascinated with the course of this thread, smarter women and men than I have observed that nothing highlights stupidity more than prejudice.
My thoughts on this madness can be found earlier in this thread and it is only my fascination that brings me back.
"what is the next step up from k&k", well given a fair share of response I guess you drop the "&" and replace it with a k, having done that join whatever side you like, why bother boiling wort when you can use that fire to burn crosses and that fruit in your beer is strange fruit indeed.

K

 

[staggalee]

late one evening outside a kit and kilo brewers home.........