What Is ..second Fermentation In The Bottle?

[Truman42]

What do craft brewers mean when they say this?

Are they just referring to putting sugar in the bottle so the beer will carbonate like we do?

If so wouldnt that be standard pocedure for all craft brewers when they bottle their beers, or do many of them carbonate with CO2 then bottle? (I dont even know if that would be possible)

 

[Benchish]

Secondary fermentation in the bottle is adding sugar and letting the yeast do its thing to make co2.

A large portion of breweries filter then force carbonate their beers prior to bottling, there are 2 main reasons for this:

1. Its faster, beers can be force carbonated in a fraction the time bottle conditioning takes
2. Greater control of the co2 levels in the beer

You can do the same thing at home if you keg your beer first then use a counter pressure filler or similar device to bottle.

 

[stux]

Sierra Nevada and Coopers are two breweries that do a secondary fermentation in the bottle

 

[Truman42]

But if they force carbonate wont they still need to give the beer time to mature anyway so they dont really gain anything?

Ive noticed wih my own beers that even though they may have carbonation after 7-10 days I still have to wait a good 3-4 weeks before the beer matures and settles down and the flavours come through correctly. (even longer with some beers)

 

[argon]

But if they force carbonate wont they still need to give the beer time to mature anyway so they dont really gain anything?

Greater than 95% of all beer in the world is done this way, that is, without 'secondary' conditioning in the bottle. I'm sure you saw that in your own independent research into the subject before starting a new thread.

 

[Fish13]

Greater than 95% of all beer in the world is done this way, that is, without 'secondary' conditioning in the bottle. I'm sure you saw that in your own independent research into the subject before starting a new thread.

im really interested in this too. how does effect the aging process if at all

 

[Liam_snorkel]

you may have noticed that coopers bottles have a "best after" date printed on the bottle.

 

[argon]

Yes I did but what I didn't find out is why they dont have to age their beer like we have to.

Thats why I asked and thats why I started a new thread.

So whats the problem with that????

The information is more than readily available. The very first result when typing "second Fermentation In The Bottle" in google links you to How to Brew where Palmer explains it all succinctly - here

Then if you are interested about bottle conditioning (as Palmer calls it) The first result for that is here

 

[Truman42]

you may have noticed that coopers bottles have a "best after" date printed on the bottle.

Oh okay no hadnt noticed that but will take a look the next time I have a Pale Ale.

So out of interest how much time do they allow from when they bottle to their best after date?

 

[argon]

From the first result in google;

Pasteurization Versus Sterile Filtration

Pretty much all packaged beers that are not bottle or cask conditioned are pasteurised.

Beers can either be pasteurized before packaging - flash pasteurization - or afterwards. In flash pasteurization the liquid moves in a controlled flow whilst subjected to temperatures of 71.5C to 74C. Pasteurization will accelerate oxidation of the beer resulting in the off-flavours associated with the action of oxygen on beer.

In sterile filtration the beer is not heated and therefore there is no risk of damaging the flavour of the beer. Instead the beer is passed through filter membranes, that trap any stray yeast cells, mold spores, or bacteria that may be present.

Beer does change flavour (perhaps considered maturation) even though it has been pasteurised ie not bottle conditioned/secondary bottle fermentation.

From the fifth result in google;

It's oxidation. There are lots of different reducing agents (things that can be oxidized) in beer. Alcohols, various fatty acids from malts and hops, melanoidins, hop acids, phenols, etc. The products of oxidation are also diverse and different. Cheesy, fatty, soapy, metallic, catty, papery, grainy, leathery, sherry-like, vinegary, etc. How much of each reducing agent is present and the amount of oxygen present determines the oxidation pathways, though perhaps not predictably from the macro-level.

 

[Nick JD]

Anyway back to the question..how can force priming bypass the maturation process that is required when we pime with sugar?

The vast majority of "maturation" is dropping the crap out of suspension. For beers that are to style only when bright and clear, you can achieve this by a few cold days and a filter. Carb up and they're dandy.

Secondary fermentation is as much to do with giving the bottles time to clear as it is giving them time to carbonate. Yes, the yeast "cleans up" some flavours - but 9/10 these flavours are not desirable, and a good brewer can eliminate them in the first place rather than needing the yeast in the bottle to do that job.

Commercial breweries crash chill, filter, carb and bottle ... and their beer is drinkable.

I have a euro lager in the keg atm that was in secondary (4C) for two days, then I kegged and carbed it. It'll get better over the next week or two by a little bit ... but you could sell it right now.

Also - read up on the commercial industry's pasteurisation process, polyphenols, and how this differs from the beers we drink that are bottle conditioned. It's mostly about stability and shelf life. A large majority of "bottle conditioned" beers with yeast in them are not that at all - they have a dead lager strain in them for flavour and looks. And are filtered and pasteurised.

Over all, most well-made beer is drinkable young.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Oh okay no hadnt noticed that but will take a look the next time I have a Pale Ale.

So out of interest how much time do they allow from when they bottle to their best after date?

the FAQ on their website says 2 weeks.

 

[Mikedub]

you may have noticed that coopers bottles have a "best after" date printed on the bottle.

first time I noticed that was drinking a Coopers best Extra Stout :icon_drool2: initially I thought it was a 'best before' date and swore at Dan's for selling me stale beer,
then I realised it read best after Doh

 

[Truman42]

Thanks for all your infomative replies.. much appreciated.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

first time I noticed that was drinking a Coopers best Extra Stout :icon_drool2: initially I thought it was a 'best before' date and swore at Dan's for selling me stale beer,
then I realised it read best after Doh

hehe. I reckon it'd take a fair while for Coopers Best Extra to go stale.

 

[Mikedub]

Over all, most well-made beer is drinkable young.

this is good to know, I've noticed lately my beers have been sitting pretty good at the 4 week mark in the bottle compared to batches I made a year or 2 ago which would smooth out at about the 3 month mark, (usually when I was down to the last bottle), either indicating my brewing is improving - or my standards are dropping

does a well made bottle conditioned home brew extend its shelf life?

 

[brettprevans]

truman

althought its covered elsewhere (incl books like brew like a monk), this might be of interest, not all breweries that bottle condition use the same yeast for bottling as fermenting. lots of diff reasons. well ok prob about 3.
- they either want to keep their proprietary yeast to themselves (ie so we can reculture it)
- they want a differant characteristic from a differant yeast.
- they yeast they use is more expensive than a cheap yeast and they need to secondary ferment beccasue its largered too long, filtered etc.

 

[argon]

truman

althought its covered elsewhere (incl books like brew like a monk), this might be of interest, not all breweries that bottle condition use the same yeast for bottling as fermenting. lots of diff reasons. well ok prob about 3.
- they either want to keep their proprietary yeast to themselves (ie so we can reculture it)
- they want a differant characteristic from a differant yeast.
- they yeast they use is more expensive than a cheap yeast and they need to secondary ferment beccasue its largered too long, filtered etc.

Adding to the highlighted point. Occasionally breweries use a lager yeast for bottle conditioning. Case in point being Little Creatures.

Hey Guys,

Was just reading this one and I can probably clarify our process.

We do ferment with an ale yeast and then filter bright and re-innoculate with a pilsner yeast (the same strain that we use in our Pilsner in fact).

There are a number of microbiological reasons for doing so - lager yeast is slightly more vigourous, will ferment a bit dryer, etc. We do only add JUST enough to do the job and post bottle conditioning we actually chill every batch to ensure tight compaction of the yeast. This is just our philosophy and ther are plenty of other ways to do it.

And yes, our yeast is stored in Copenhagen and we propagate fresh conditioning yeast every week. (ale yeast about once every 4 weeks).

Anyway, there you go.... (and yes, I guess you could culture up the pils yeast from the bottle, but as someone said here, probably purchase some and you are guaranteed that the yeast is healthy).

Cheers,

Alex (aka LC Chief Brewer)

 

[Deebo]

So do coopers/little creatures have stacks of bottles under controlled conditions carbonating someplace? (I would expect this would have to be the case or some people may be getting flat beer?)
or do they let the secondary fermentation happen during transport etc?

 

[Nick JD]

So do coopers/little creatures have stacks of bottles under controlled conditions carbonating someplace? (I would expect this would have to be the case or some people may be getting flat beer?)

Yes. Coopers stack the pallets for a couple of weeks I believe.