What are the optimal temperature steps with a HERMS system?

[Qualia]

So I've recently fixed a 10 metre copper coil into my HLT to create a basic HERMS system.

I'm now looking to explore how temperature steps can increase the efficiency and improve the characteristics of my wort.

Is there any benefit for doing a two step temperature rise that sit at the optimal temperature for both the alpha and beta-amylase rests — say 61c and 69c for 30min each?

Or is it better to target either just the alpha or beta to get the finish you after?

What do you do?

Cheers!

 

[MHB]

God there are a lot of answers, you really have asked a piece of string question.
Worth reading Braukaiser - theory of mashing and/or the science of mashing
One point that is worth thinking about is that there is lots of Alpha Amylase in malt, a lot less Beta and that Alpha works faster, so a mash temperature that favours some Alpha and a lot of Beta is probably a good compromise.
These days, if you are using a good quality malt the need for protein, glucan, phytase... rests are largely redundant and you probably get the best result from a fairly simple two step regime, Saccharification rest, followed by heating to 78-80 to mash out. Depending on how fast your equipment heats it can be of value to heat the mash from ambient to Saccharifying temperatures before resting, you would want to be heating at 0.5-1oC/minute, any faster and you will be killing off enzymes during the heating, any slower and you are likely to run out of patience (or day). Slow constant heating from Cool to Sacc will give all the enzymes a chance to go into solution and do what they need to do and wont take much longer than just heating the water.
Mark

 

[Qualia]

Good idea about heating the water from ambient to saccharification. Would hydrate the malt while avoiding going to heavy with the strike water. Thanks.

 

[rude]

What about 55 dough in then
62 for 30
68 for 30
72 for 10
78 for 10
Need to do some research on this also
Like the idea 1c per/min
Raise to sach 65 then 78 to finish sounds good nice & simple
Depends on beer style too I suppose

 

[Jez]

I found this thread very helpful when I first started step mashing with my HERMS

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/stepped-mashing-schedules-by-style.62204/#post-873740

 

[manticle]

Temperature steps is dependent on desired results rather than system. I mash in an esky but still step most brews with an OTS element and occasional decoctions..

For me, it's usually a very short rest at 55 (5 mins), a shortish rest at low 60s for beta, a longer rest for alpha (but not so high that beta is out of the running), a rest at 72 for glycoprotein and a mash out at 78.

Typically something like:

TEMP: 55/62/69/72/78
TIME: 5/10/40/10/10

If I am mashing for a drier finish, I'll bump the beta rest to 15. None of it is necessary to make beer and targetting 64 for dry or 68 for dextrinous also works but I've preferred the results since I started breaking up the sacch rest to favour both enzymes separately.

Really depends on what you want to get out of it.

 

[rude]

[emoji106]

 

[a1149913]

The biggest issue with herms is that its very difficult to raise mash temps. It will probably take you 30 minutes to raise from 61c to 69c. Remember, you can't increase your HLT with your HERMS coil above 69. So it takes much longer than 1c/min.

However, herms is very useful for making your wort crystal clear!

PM me if you want more info

 

[a1149913]

I have no idea how to delete posts

 

[malt junkie]

The biggest issue with herms is that its very difficult to raise mash temps. It will probably take you 30 minutes to raise from 61c to 69c. Remember, you can't increase your HLT with your HERMS coil above 69. So it takes much longer than 1c/min.

However, herms is very useful for making your wort crystal clear!

PM me if you want more info

of course this only applies if your herms is circulated through your HLT, if you have a separate herms unit you can ramp at reasonable rates, with one caveat and that just comes down to power (heating)/flow rate/mash size. So I say get a fourth vessel! (you know you want to)

 

[barls]

you need mod powers to delete after a set time.

 

[malt junkie]

you need mod powers to delete after a set time.

Normal users have no option to delete anymore Barls

 

[barls]

fair enough must of came with the update

 

[a1149913]

of course this only applies if your herms is circulated through your HLT, if you have a separate herms unit you can ramp at reasonable rates, with one caveat and that just comes down to power (heating)/flow rate/mash size. So I say get a fourth vessel! (you know you want to)

Unfortunately this isn't the case - For example, If you need to raise your mash temp from 61 to 68, you could set your HERMS/HLT to 75 which will raise the mash temp pretty quickly. But what most people overlook/forget is that the wort running through that herms will get up to 75. Not great for enzyme activity/efficiency. Hence, this is why you can't run your HERMS/HLT much higher than your desired mash temp.

 

[malt junkie]

Unfortunately this isn't the case - For example, If you need to raise your mash temp from 61 to 68, you could set your HERMS/HLT to 75 which will raise the mash temp pretty quickly. But what most people overlook/forget is that the wort running through that herms will get up to 75. Not great for enzyme activity/efficiency. Hence, this is why you can't run your HERMS/HLT much higher than your desired mash temp.

Fortunately we have a dedicated thread that well outlines the fact temperates need to taken at the worts exit of the HX, and if investing hundreds of dollars in stepping mash temps, the 20 minutes reading that thread would be due diligence.


ED:How you control temp fluctuation well there's an entire forum of it's own

 

[a1149913]

I agree - that thread would have a wealth of knowledge.

Just out of curiosity - Can you outline some common step temps, times to achieve those temps and also your HLT etc settings/temps.

I don't step mash and a rarely sparge these days

J

 

[malt junkie]

So my steps are usually:
Temp 50/65/72/78
Time dough in10/50/10/20+

Time to ramp to those steps are VERY system dependent as is the temp(HLT in your case) needed in the HX, the steps themselves alter the balance of the beer, mine are I find fairly neutral. If everyone in this thread brewed the same recipe exactly with the same step temps on their own gear, we would each have an ever so slightly different beer. Dialing in a new system so it reacts as you predict, is a process that really only you can do. Ball park HLT temp would be around 2c above set temp, but note this is dependent on so many things. Brew a beer fiddle with HX temps/ flow rate. Also it's a nice idea to be whirlpooling the HLT for the duration (best done with a pump!)

 

[a1149913]

Cool thanks!

So to go from 50 - 65, you'd set your HLT to 67. How long would it take you to get your mash tun/grain bed to 65?