Water Ph 8.4

[Goose]

I've tried 4 or 5 AG's now each of them have had a distinct estery odour and flavour. I tried dropping the temperature of the ferment but found even if I brewed at 10 deg C using lager yeast the ester was still there. Its been described by tasters as a banana smell. I do know that the banana ester is primarily caused by poor wort aeration and / or high temperatures.

I admit I charged into AG without testing my pH becasue at the time I had no means of measuring it. Being frustrated with my failures I've learned the hard way and purchased a pH meter. I was very surprised at the quality of my tapwater, pH 8.5 unfliltered and 8.4 aftr carbon filtration. I've not yet measured a mash but I can almost certainly guess it will have been too high.

I've been told my beers have a degree of astringency which is no doubt been caused by tannin extractions because of the high pH , but does anybody know if such a high strike pH could cause ester formation ?

I've been using Safale U56 for ales and SafLager S23 for the lagers I have tried.

 

[matti]

Wow Goose u know the saying....
PH of your water should be 6.6-6.8. Pilsners, Munich needs soft water and Dortmunds and Viennas harder water.
The ph also rises with the boil.
I use citric acid for my water and baking soda to adjust.
The yeast you use maybe produce esters as well.
High gravity wort could be another reason.
I kind of like the slight estery flavours aslong its balance with hops.
Read Hot to brew lager By Greg Noonan.
I am completely converted.
Matti

 

[mikem108]

AFter measuring the same pH as you I now adjust with citric acid. Don't know if it has made a noticable difference but it makes me feel better.

 

[Goose]

AFter measuring the same pH as you I now adjust with citric acid. Don't know if it has made a noticable difference but it makes me feel better.

Really. So no noticeable difference eh ? And I read that pH is THE most important thing,, :unsure:

Can I ask how much citric u add to get the pH down ? Any sour / tart taste u can notice in the beer at all ?

 

[joecast]

Being frustrated with my failures I've learned the hard way and purchased a pH meter. I was very surprised at the quality of my tapwater, pH 8.5 unfliltered and 8.4 aftr carbon filtration. I've not yet measured a mash but I can almost certainly guess it will have been too high.

I've been told my beers have a degree of astringency which is no doubt been caused by tannin extractions because of the high pH , but does anybody know if such a high strike pH could cause ester formation ?

hey goose,
cant really help with your beer, but very curious about your pH results. tap water over 8 is very high! have you checked your pH meter? after a while they tend to drift and need calibrating/standardizing regularly (at least monthly).
if you find that your results are correct, i suggest calling (or sending an e-mail to) your local water board. if you are not using well water of course. tell them what you are getting and ask if they think this is normal. some variation from catchment and treatment plant output is normal, but it usually levels out (7.0-7.5) by the time it gets to the tap.
sorry for the long post. i work at my local water authority and would be very concerned with reticulated water at that high a pH. cheers.
joe

 

[altstart]

Being frustrated with my failures I've learned the hard way and purchased a pH meter. I was very surprised at the quality of my tapwater, pH 8.5 unfliltered and 8.4 aftr carbon filtration. I've not yet measured a mash but I can almost certainly guess it will have been too high.

I've been told my beers have a degree of astringency which is no doubt been caused by tannin extractions because of the high pH , but does anybody know if such a high strike pH could cause ester formation ?

hey goose,
cant really help with your beer, but very curious about your pH results. tap water over 8 is very high! have you checked your pH meter? after a while they tend to drift and need calibrating/standardizing regularly (at least monthly).
if you find that your results are correct, i suggest calling (or sending an e-mail to) your local water board. if you are not using well water of course. tell them what you are getting and ask if they think this is normal. some variation from catchment and treatment plant output is normal, but it usually levels out (7.0-7.5) by the time it gets to the tap.
sorry for the long post. i work at my local water authority and would be very concerned with reticulated water at that high a pH. cheers.
joe

When you purchased your PH meter did you buy buffer solutions as well. These are essential to monitor the correct operation of your PH meter.
Cheers Altstart

 

[Goose]

Thanks Guys.

My local water analysis in fact states a range of pH is expected to be between 7 and 9. Its catchment water and is super soft. So 8.4 is within their expected range.

Check it out if u like: http://www.pub.gov.sg/our_services/WaterWSHowBrought.aspx

My meter came with a pH 7 calibration solution... seemed to work ok.

So what u think, phosphoric acid, citric acid ?

Goose

 

[Stuster]

tap water over 8 is very high!
it usually levels out (7.0-7.5) by the time it gets to the tap.

Really interesting stuff, joecast. I have been wondering about this since somebody else said the same in another thread. But looking at the water analysis for Sydney, here , they give figures of up to 8.9 for some of the dams. My water is from Prospect and they say 8.0-8.4 for that water. Any ideas on why this is?

Cheers
Stuart

BTW, I have not really noticed any problems with using this water. It is very soft water of course so that may be why the mash brings it down to good brewing levels quite well.

 

[matti]

Don't know 'bout your area put the pool guy would know if the council data base is out of date.
I am in SW Sydney. The Ph two suburbs up is 7.2. My own tap water is 7.4. But it tends to vary from day today. I use citric acid. 1/2 teaspoon for 10 litres. That bring it below 6.8 every time. Since I boil my water a day prior to brewday.

 

[Screwtop]

This is the advice which I follow.

3. I believe you only have to test the pH at the following areas. The rest
is un-neccessary for a craftbrewer.
water for doughing in - pH arround 6.0
sparge water - pH at 5.7
mash, either after protein rest, or if drop infused at start of
rest - pH 5.3

From this post:

Here's an interesting posting from Graham Sanders regarding ph

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. pH to me is probably the most important thing in brewing, yet also the
most under-rated. pH affects every reaction in craftbrewering, from malting
to lagering, and all points inbetween. We have seen the comments on pH and
dry-hopping, but I could quote heaps of other effects.

2. Having any pH meter/papers is far better than having none at all. Least
you are in the ball park and may even be in the game. If I was making 1,600
litres, well I would have a very accurate pH meter at hand (to two decimal
points) and test the beer at every stage. There is a lot to lose if things
go wrong. But we make far smaller batches. Plus we dont have the controls
bigger brewers have. We dont have to be anal, you dont need a sled-hammer to
crack a nut. For the average brewer papers will give a good guide where you
stand, as well as el cheepo dick smith meters. Mine is a mid range one. ATC,
to one decimal point, accurate +/- 0.1. Thats the minimum when you go
fanatical like me, but most craftbrewers dont have to go that far. The
important thing to me is for the brewer to really think about their pH and
play arround with it. It might surprise you.

3. I believe you only have to test the pH at the following areas. The rest
is un-neccessary for a craftbrewer.
water for doughing in - pH arround 6.0
sparge water - pH at 5.7
mash, either after protein rest, or if drop infused at start of
rest - pH 5.3

Thats all, get these right and the rest of the process flows naturally.

Extract/kit brewers are not exempt. But they have a easier life. Their wort
should be about 5.5 at the start of fermentation. They have only one
measurement to make.

And a point or two out wont kill you. I promise.

4. pH is temperature dependant. Any pH quoted is at room temperature unless
quoted otherwise. Always cool the sample and then test.

Now we have articles on the web site covering this, but David will be
posting some more articles shortly that concern water, so you should check
the web site over the next couple of weeks.

Shout
Graham Sanders

I use citric acid or a little white vinegar as my water is slightly alkaline, vinegar is easier to adjust (not so strong). Adjust pre heating for step infusions. This procedure takes into account the PH effect of grain/water at each step and aims for a general mash PH of 5.5

Hope this helps, Cheers

 

[joecast]

hey stuster,
good link, thanks for adding it. im no chemist, but i'll try to explain what i've learned from work (hobart water).
water from a catchment, mountains, river, etc. will pick up/react with minerals and other matter it comes in contact with. some minerals can have an effect that will increase pH and act as a "buffer" that helps maintain that level.
here in hobart, we get very little of that effect and have more trouble getting our pH up to 7.0 and generally try and keep it around 7.5 to minimize corrosion of pipes. of course, then the water can react with concrete in pipes and that changes the pH anyway.
and for some light reading...

http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/publications/_files/awg5.pdf

the australian drinking water guidelines!! or at least part of them. thought i should put some actual "fact" type info with all my ramblings. the first paragraph under pH states 6.5 to 8.5 with an allowance up to 9.2
as these are just "guidelines" most water authorities will set their own allowable range to operate in, or have more strict interpretations they will follow. hope that didnt get too off-topic. whew!
joe

 

[berapnopod]

A couple of things about pH:

As joe just mentioned, many water supplies will keep the pH above 7 because slightly acidic water can dissolve lead pipes and lead gets into your drinking water. So a pH of 8.4 isn't unusual for a water supply.

The other thing is that water on its own typically has a very low buffering capacity. A mash has a high buffering capacity. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter too much what your water pH is, because the mash will usually take care of it. If you're worried about pH, you should be measuring the mash pH. Don't worry about adjusting the water pH.

Having said that, there are some times when you want to take into account the water makeup, but not necessarily the pH. When I brew, I think about where a particular style originates, and what the water is like at the origin. If its a Bohemian Pilsner, then the water should be very soft, with little salts. Luckily Sydney water is like this, so I don't add any salts to my water. If I do a German pilsner, then I'll add a bit of Calcium sulfate. If its a stout, I'll add a lot of calcium carbonate and a bit of magnesium sulfate to mimic Dublin water which is very hard. Hard water is necessary for a stout 'cos the roasted grains add an extra bit of acidity to the mash, and the CaCO3 balances it out. You'll notice that nowhere in this method do I talk about pH. Take care of the salt makeup of the water and the pH should look after itself.

Heres a page I use to calculate my salt additions: Link

Berp.

 

[Hogan]

I get my tap water from the Nepean catchment area in S/W Sydney. Did a ph test on that (albeit with a swiming pool kit) and got an indication of above 8.4

Did the same test on the rainwater tank and got below 6.2

Which water would be better to treat to lower the ph to an appropriate level - ie which would retain the salts and minerals necessary for good water - the tap or the tank.


Cheers.

 

[berapnopod]

I get my tap water from the Nepean catchment area in S/W Sydney. Did a ph test on that (albeit with a swiming pool kit) and got an indication of above 8.4

Did the same test on the rainwater tank and got below 6.2

Which water would be better to treat to lower the ph to an appropriate level - ie which would retain the salts and minerals necessary for good water - the tap or the tank.


Cheers.

Hogan, see my post above.

In other words:
Get yourself a homebrew. Sit down in a comfy chair. Put your feet up.
Relax. Take a sip of the homebrew. Now listen to this:
Don't worry about the pH of your water.
As the Monk said to the horse, "Take care of the salts in the water and the mash will take care of the pH for you."

If you can get an analysis of your water, that will give you a starting point for how much and what sort of ions are in your municipal water.

Alternately, tank water should be a good start since it should be virtually devoid of salts. You can then build it up to whatever water profile you like by salt additions.

Berp.

 

[lou]

I use phos acid in my water - brissy water is around ph8 and too high - i don't know what diff it makes casue i always do it but seems like a safe move

re funny tastes - i have had heaps of trouble with this and rekon most times is due to an infection - there are lots of nasties out there which can produce lots of different funny tastes and I rekon your average plastic fermenter is too hard to clean properly if it is possible to clean them properly at all - the soft plastic absorbs smells and is so easily scratched - i'm changing to SS fermenter - expensive but shiny

lou

 

[Goose]

The other thing is that water on its own typically has a very low buffering capacity. A mash has a high buffering capacity. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter too much what your water pH is, because the mash will usually take care of it. If you're worried about pH, you should be measuring the mash pH. Don't worry about adjusting the water pH.

Although I'd heard adjusting the mash pH is difficult without spoiling flavour because of its inherent buffering capacity.

Measured my pH today before mashing, 8.9. Holy cow. It varies day to day.

Got 12 litres carbon filtered mashwater ready and added 5g Epsom Salts (MgSO4) Ph dropped to 8.7. Another 5 g got me down to only 8.6. Figured I might reach the solubility limit if I kept adding the stuff to get to a pH strike of around 6.0 so used a solution of tartaric acid (5g or 1 tsp in 2 litres of water, this solution had a pH of 2.5) to bring mashwater pH down to 6.0. Had to use a surprisingly small amount to achieve this pH reduction, less than 80 mls or so. Must have something to do with the fact my water is super soft.

Anyway after doughing in I measured pH of top liquid (strained and cooled to room temp) and it was 5.5. Next time will aim for strike water pH 0f 5.7 and see what happens.