Vegemite Taste ?

[Fatgodzilla]

In the current BYO Brew mag, a passing reference was made to an infection (or possibly production fault) with a vegemite taste (fancy Americans saying that). A similiar comment was made in a discussion on a micro in Melbourne's output.

Knowing Vegemite is a yeast extract and being an Aussie so can eat Vegemite with a spoon, please enlighten me what a vegemite infected beer might taste like (salty, yeasty .. chicken ???) and likely causes.

 

[peas_and_corn]

caused by autolysis- if you leave beer on the yeast cake too long it will start killing itself, creating all sorts of vegemite flavours.

 

[Muggus]

caused by autolysis- if you leave beer on the yeast cake too long it will start killing itself, creating all sorts of vegemite flavours.

Just out of interest, how long would be considered 'too long'?

I've had a stout that spent over a month in primary, and it was very vegemitey from memory.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Just out of interest, how long would be considered 'too long'?

I've had a stout that spent over a month in primary, and it was very vegemitey from memory.

What, thick & black ??

autolysis is when the yeast runs out of sugars, eats the alcohol ? to sustain itself ? Do remember that from somewhere - doesn't only certain types of yeast do that ?

 

[peas_and_corn]

That's a grey one. I personally don't leave beer on primary for longer than two weeks (sometimes 20 days), but there are people who claim that they have left their beer on primary for months with no ill effect. So... depends a lot on many different factors- one being luck! I would advise that you not leave it on primary for longer than two weeks just to be on the safe side.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Lager comes from the German word "lagern" which means to store. A lager beer is in cold storage while it ages in the conditioning phase. Temperature influences lagers in two ways. During primary fermentation, the cooler temperature (45-55 F) prevents the formation of fruity esters by the yeast. In addition to producing fewer byproducts during the primary phase, the yeast uses the long conditioning phase to finish off residual sugars and metabolize other compounds that may give rise to off-flavors and aromas. Unfortunately, this long time with the beer in contact with the yeast can be a problem. The problem is autolysis, i.e. yeast-suicide, which can produce terrible off-flavors in the beer.

From Palmer. i knew I read it somewhere. Normally shouldn't be a problem.

edit - more Palmer

Luckily, the propensity of yeast to autolyze is decreased by a decrease in activity and a decrease in total yeast mass. What this means to a brewer is that racking to a secondary fermenter to get the beer off the dead yeast and lowering the temperature for the long cold storage allows the beer to condition without much risk of autolysis. At a minimum, a beer that has experienced autolysis will have a burnt rubber taste and smell and will probably be undrinkable. At worst it will be unapproachable.

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis. Autolysis is not inevitable, but it is lurking.

 

[Adamt]

Autolysis = Self-destruction. When yeast cells bust they release their digestive enzymes and stuff and eat themselves. It happens because of old yeast cells, steep temperature changes, etc. As for the taste, it's vegemite but less salty.

 

[Kai]

Knowing Vegemite is a yeast extract and being an Aussie so can eat Vegemite with a spoon, please enlighten me what a vegemite infected beer might taste like.

Vegemite.

 

[brendanos]

Burnt rubber is an interesting one. Good description of my 1yo lambic!

 

[Jazzafish]

Try it for yourself...

Ingredients:
1 teaspoon of Vegimite
1 bottle of your best home brewed beer

Method
Take your favourite beer glass and add a teaspoon of vegimite
Pour your best home brew over the vegimite

ENJOY!
:icon_vomit:

Either rack your beer off the yeast, or the yeast off the beer when lagering

 

[Kai]

Burnt rubber is an interesting one. Good description of my 1yo lambic!

That was more like rubber bands though. We'll try it again next year

 

[dr K]

Not certain about a Vegemite "taste" as this is predominatly salty but ther certainly is a vegemite aroma to some beers.
I do not know what causes it, but is seems to be limited to darker beers and I strongly suspect that the character comes from oxidation of compounds found in darker beers. This aroma, by the way, I have often encountered in less than fresh commercial examples of darker beers as well as home brewed examples thus my suspiscion that it is an oxidative reaction rather than autolysis..which is actually quite hard to get and given the production line techniques of commercial breweries virtually impossible to get in a commercial beer.

K

 

[Kai]

A few weeks ago I had a belhaven wee heavy that was a perfect example of vegemite in a glass. I've had it in lighter beers but only on a homebrew level. Your postulation intrigues me though, I'd like to discuss it in more depth but it's late and the beers I've had are inhibiting rational discourse. Maybe tomorrow

 

[warrenlw63]

It was a very apparent and common symptom when we used to judge Imperial Stouts at Club comps.

I also used to pick up a similar trait in Grand Ridge's Supershine.

My money would be on some form of autolysis or stressed yeast too.

Warren -

 

[Adamt]

Dr K:

I very much doubt the notion of oxidation causing vegemite. If this were the case vegemite would be a hell of a lot cheaper, for starters .

I think the higher apparency you have noticed is due to the normally higher levels of alcohol in stouts (more stress on the yeast - faster autolysis), or due to bad yeast health (many inexperienced K&Kers seem to favour stouts as they hide off flavours better).

 

[Plastic Man]

I also used to pick up a similar trait in Grand Ridge's Supershine.

We bought a few cases of Grand Ridge's Moonshine for our work beer club a few years back. I enjoyed it, but one of the pommy guys said he reconed it tasted like Bovril. After he made the comment it was pretty noticable.

Just as a note - I kegged a beer on Saturday that had been sitting in primary for 6 weeks due to the fact I was away 3 weeks and then flat out for 2 weeks when I got back so didn't get around to cleaning a keg out and doing the transfer till last w/e. I was a bit worried about autolysis but the beer was clean with no hints of vegimite. It was sitting at a low temp though which would have helped. Definately not soemthing to make a habit of though...

 

[clay]

I wondered where the vegemite taste came from as I had a brew from a micro in the SW a while ago that was loaded with it. Couldn't even finish the sample glass

 

[brendanos]

I copped a surprisingly meaty flavour from the lees of a craft brewed barleywine today, vaguely vegemite, though the flavour wasn't discernable in the beer.

 

[Kai]

Meaty has foundations in sulphur compounds too, i have a brown ale fresh in bottle that exhibited similar flavours through fermentation and conditioning. Gone now fortunately.

 

[tcraig20]

Vegemite is made by the autolysis of brewer's yeast at elevated temperatures followed by vacuum evaporation/concentration.

Given that, I'd say autolysis is the most likely cause of vegemite flavours in beer.