Cider Taste In Beer

[tommystarr]

I'm hoping someone could enlighten me on the cause of cider like-yeasty taste in beer.

My first brew suffered from this and I have moved on (it was a coopers larger and being my first brew things didn't go so smooth). It had good head and bubbles but that element of cider taste remains after a few months of ageing.

My second brew is a pale ale (using the Cascade Pale ale mix from Brewcraft in melbourne). I tasted when bottling and it was quite nice - no sign of over yeasty flavours. I was advised to get the bottles back to 18-20 degrees for the priming phase so I took them to my girlfriends house because they have a floor heater (I used a fish-tank heater for fermentation). So i have a feeling bottle temparatures could have reached high 20s- maybe 30 or above, but I have no record of this.

Anyway, I had a first taste of the pale ale yeaterday after only two weeks priming. The first taste from the bottle was very nice and I poured the rest into a pot glass. While it tasted OK - there was a slight flavour reminding of my first brew - a little bit cider like.

So if anyone can help with questions like:

1. Might I have over cooked the yeast in priming stage?
2. Should I just wait longer and it will get much better in a couple of months?
3. What exactly causes a cider taste in beer?

Any help much appreciated!


Bottle: cascade pale ale
Fermenting: Summer Ale!
Future project: Stout

 

[.DJ.]

to much sugar (white or dex) coupled with high fermentation temps can cause cider flavours...

what are you adding to your tin of goop? and what temp are you fermenting at?

 

[Pennywise]

temparatures could have reached high 20s- maybe 30 or above, but I have no record of this.

There's the problem, those temps are WAY too high, next brew try and ferment closer to 20 deg, preferably 18. The higher temps make the yeasties produce that cidery twang

And always keep records :icon_cheers:

edit: I live in Melb and with no heating on the brew I get a pretty constant 18-20 degrees in the middle of winter.

 

[chappo1970]

Tommy what was the recipe/sugars/fermentables used?

I am guessing that this is a straight Kit and Kilo eg 1 can of goop with 1kg of Sugar kit yeast? The sugar and the kit yeast combined will give you those off-ish flavours, your temps seem to be fine in the bottle but what about fermentation temps?

More info please?

Chappo

Edut: Added a little more.

 

[Adamt]

Cider taste (acetaldehyde) is usually caused by high fermentation temperature, and/or inadequate maturation. If it's only mild after only 2 weeks, I would guess another week or so will further reduce it. Though, the mind is very powerful, if you're consciously searching for a flavour in a beer you can often taste it even if it's not there.

 

[Adamt]

to much sugar (white or dex) coupled with high fermentation temps can cause cider flavours...

what are you adding to your tin of goop? and what temp are you fermenting at?

There's no reason why sugar (sucrose or dextrose) would contribute to increased acetaldehyde.

There's the problem, those temps are WAY too high, next brew try and ferment closer to 20 deg, preferably 18. The higher temps make the yeasties produce that cidery twang

And always keep records :icon_cheers:

edit: I live in Melb and with no heating on the brew I get a pretty constant 18-20 degrees in the middle of winter.

The temps he quoted were temps where the bottles were kept after priming.

 

[Pennywise]

The temps he quoted were temps where the bottles were kept after priming.

Ahh, my bad.

 

[tommystarr]

There's no reason why sugar (sucrose or dextrose) would contribute to increased acetaldehyde.




The temps he quoted were temps where the bottles were kept after priming.

That's right - sorry if I wasnt' clear enough. fermentation was a smooth 19 degrees all the way through.

It was in the bottles that the temp could have reached above 30, as I said I'm not sure.

The ingredients were (I can't remember all right now):

Black Rock IPA
1kg Malt (can't remember which no)
Cascade Hops
Yeast (don't recall but it was good quality not from can.

 

[mwd]

Don't believe the SUGAR myth it is not true.

We have boys here in the Middle East that brew Coopers kits and just white sugar with no weigh scales and if the temperature is controlled they do NOT taste anything like Cider.

They don't taste great mind you but beggers cannot be choosers .

Don't mention those big cans in checked luggage.

 

[manticle]

I'm confused as to whether acetylaldehyde and this oft described 'cidery' twang are one and the same or seperate. I always assumed they were until recently when viewing a website on off flavours which described both seperately. As far as I'm aware acetylaldehyde is often produced by unhealthy yeast or bad yeast management or young (green) beer or racking too early. It can also be caused by bacterial infection which may be more like apple cider vinegar or by oxidising finished beer (at least according to wikipedia :not always reliable). I've tasted it and it does taste like granny smiths (not so much like cider though) and supposedly it can dissipate with age.

Cidery can supposedly be caused by stale extract. The sugar thing is debatable.

I really don't know if they are meant to be one and the same. I never made a kit that tasted anything like cider (except for a couple of cider kits) so I've not had the pleasure.

Try the following:

Make sure you clean and sanitise everything super well.
Replace some of the sugar with dried malt extract
Use either 2 packets of kit yeast or buy a new yeast from a home brew shop (11-12g). In either case make sure the yeast is fairly fresh and has been well kept (if it's not under the lid of the tin it should be refrigeratred)
Make sure the kit is fresh
Let the beer ferment and leave it another week. Make sure ferment temps are stable and appropriate for the type of beer being brewed.
Place fermenter in fridge for a week (cold conditioning can supposedly reduce or prevent acetylaldehyde).
Let bottles age for a minimum month before drinking.

That won't help you find what's causing it and there may be some uneccessary steps in there (although I think a lot of that is helpful in making better beer anyway) but it should combat the touted likely causes of cider and acetylaldehyde (green apple).

 

[haysie]

Arthur and I brewed side by side Blondes, he went 5.5% with some sugar i went 7.9% with the additions of sugar and more sugar, we have very similar ferm. control, split the starter. His was a corker, mine was a shocker, Cider Cider Cider, terrible. I left it in the keg for a few months and it improved yet being a belgian we fermented high and finished the ferment even higher , the head shakes the fusels the next day were intolerable. I tipped the last 10 litres.
Sugar is cidery no doubt about it. Never AGAIN, until next side by side.

 

[tommystarr]

Thanks for all the comments!

I had a second taste after 4 weeks in the bottle and it was OK - perhaps the tiniest hint of cider imaginable but I can't imagine a friend noticing it.

It was very satisfying tasting my own beer from a bottle with some salty nuts!