Vanilla Smell

[Goose]

G'day lads,

Been having off smell/taste issues ever since I went AG and have discussed earlier in a different thread where I thought oxidation may be the cause.

In all my beers I seem to get a vanilla smell (some say small hint of banana) but the degree of it varies and I cant pin down the cause. What i do know is that when I taste the beer direct from the primary I cant detect it so its something I am doing or something that is happening afterward thats causing it... here's some ideas, anybody care to guess a probability;

- kind of sanitiser, I use Ecolab Ansep, an alkaline medical grade sanitiser that I spray on and rinse off, its has a bleach like smell that is not evident after I have rinsed

- the C02 I am using to gas up the beer... its supposed to be food grade :unsure:

- oxidation on transfer, though I am careful to purge with CO2 before transfers

Have tried different hops, yeast, and think I'm pretty good on the sanitation procedure that I am using.
The taste / smell comes in pretty quickly... I rack to keg, refrigerate, gas up 24 hours and its there.

Will definitely try different sanitizer to experiment but any other ideas welcome please...

Frustrated :angry: Goose

 

[Steve]

both ales and lagers?

 

[lou]

What sort of fermenter/secondary do you use - how old is it?

looks like you are kegging so no issue there.

I dumped an old fermenter that always left off tastes - might be time to change your sanitiser and your fermenter -

plastic ones are so pourous - they will absorb anything - pretty much - is the smell in the fermenter after it is cleaned?

and most importantly - what yeasts are you using


lou

 

[Goose]

thanks chaps.

both for ales and lagers but it seems more pronounced with lagers.

yeast, safale and saflager, for ale recently tried Craftbrewer's Premium Ale yeast, its still there.

btw I also break my tap apart and sanitise it, I am also going to replace my transfer line but its as clear as day and soaks in sanitizer before its used.

dont think its the fermenter, as I say the flavour is not evident in any of the samples I take for SG measurement, I'm convinced its something happening post or during transfer from the primary. :blink:

Goose

 

[pint of lager]

Bannana is usually associated with fermentation and a characteristic of the yeast. I have never seen anyone comment on vanilla as being a descriptor for an unusual aroma.

With your sanitiser, you are aiming for a food grade no rinse sanitiser. Most people use iodine, phosphoric acid or hydrogen peroxide. I am unfamiliar with your medical grade sanitiser. Maybe someone else can comment regarding its suitability. Maybe it reacts with stainless steel?

To rule out your gas as being the culprit, you could bulk prime a keg.

 

[Coodgee]

sure it's not a bubble gum aroma? I had that once from pitching yeast too warm in an apa. if this is your problem then lower fermentation temps might be the key.

 

[Weizguy]

G'day Goose,

The flavr is more pronounced in lagers, prob due to the transparency (flavr-wise) of these beers.

If you can pin it down to a certain point in the process, that would be a good start.

You haven't mentioned how you clean the keg and lines.
What was in the keg before you started using it for beer?
Do you clean the beer tap between kegs?

If you have been tasting the beer throughout the process, and it only seems to taste weird after it's kegged, I'd recommend a keg/line/tap (and maybe beer glasses?) cleanout with plenty of pink powder and a thorough couple of rinses.

Seth out

 

[wessmith]

Hi Goose, I think you need to go back to the wort/fermentation stages. That "vanilla" aroma/flavour can be a mild diacetyl (butterscotch) or 2,3 pentanedione (honey) based. In either case the pre-cursors will have started in the fermentation stage and developed from there. Definitely look at oxidation in the wort, change your sanitation chemicals and just be as clean as you can. I am unsure about your current sanitiser and would strongly recommend an Iodorphor or peroxide based sanitiser.

Wes

 

[Goose]

Hi Goose, I think you need to go back to the wort/fermentation stages. That "vanilla" aroma/flavour can be a mild diacetyl (butterscotch) or 2,3 pentanedione (honey) based. In either case the pre-cursors will have started in the fermentation stage and developed from there. Definitely look at oxidation in the wort, change your sanitation chemicals and just be as clean as you can. I am unsure about your current sanitiser and would strongly recommend an Iodorphor or peroxide based sanitiser.

Wes

Thanks lads, the reponses are v much appreciated.

Kegs are brand spankers actually, but I did sanitise them with the ecosep. After each keg is finished I flush the lines with same solution. I think i'm going to stop using this stuff....

Pitching temp and fermentation temp strictly controlled... this is not the issue

Wes, I can buy the honey based smell and flavour... 2,3 pentanedione ... definitely a hint of this. How is this formed ? .. I aerate using an electric drill and hydrate my yeast prior to pitching... I ferment ales at 16 deg C, dont tell me I need a diacetyl rest for an ale do I ?

One other thing, doing my AG's my wort is not as clear as it should be, thats because I have no means of using the grain bed as a natural filter (I use a large grain basket with perforations the size of most false bottoms) and a fair amount of grist gets through though I do strain it using a kitchen strainer before it goes into the boiler. Am wondering if anything I'm letting through there might be causing the problem... :blink:


Thanks again

Goose

 

[lou]

Once you have ruled out the sanitiser issue which i somehow think is unlikely if you are rinsing well

my bet its the yeast - I never really brewed good beers with those yeasts - always found there were various off flavours - but it matters where you buy them and what condition they are in - ie are they stored in fridge - as soon as I started using liquid yeasts with starters my funky off flavours disappeared

I controled my temps everything but could not budge crappy flavours - new fermenter/bucket and good yeast/non dried solved all my problems

lou

 

[Goose]

Once you have ruled out the sanitiser issue which i somehow think is unlikely if you are rinsing well

my bet its the yeast - I never really brewed good beers with those yeasts - always found there were various off flavours - but it matters where you buy them and what condition they are in - ie are they stored in fridge - as soon as I started using liquid yeasts with starters my funky off flavours disappeared

I controled my temps everything but could not budge crappy flavours - new fermenter/bucket and good yeast/non dried solved all my problems

lou

Dry yeasts you think... :unsure: . Perhaps they dont work so well on AG as they do on kits or DME/LME constructs. I've taken your advice and ordered a whitelabs dry ale and an australian ale tube to give it a whirl. Not cheap dammit... :angry: but it has to be tried.

Thanks

Goose

 

[Coodgee]

doubt this is the problem. safale and saf lager give good results every time.not great , but always good.

 

[warrenlw63]

Goose

Just out of curiousity are your AG beers displaying any form of haze? :unsure:

Warren -

 

[wessmith]

Once you have ruled out the sanitiser issue which i somehow think is unlikely if you are rinsing well

my bet its the yeast - I never really brewed good beers with those yeasts - always found there were various off flavours - but it matters where you buy them and what condition they are in - ie are they stored in fridge - as soon as I started using liquid yeasts with starters my funky off flavours disappeared

I controled my temps everything but could not budge crappy flavours - new fermenter/bucket and good yeast/non dried solved all my problems

lou

Dry yeasts you think... :unsure: . Perhaps they dont work so well on AG as they do on kits or DME/LME constructs. I've taken your advice and ordered a whitelabs dry ale and an australian ale tube to give it a whirl. Not cheap dammit... :angry: but it has to be tried.

Thanks

Goose

Hi Goose,

There is nothing wrong with dried yeasts - you would be very surprised to see how many commercial breweries use them. There does need to be however an understanding of the best methods of useage. For the original pitching, very little oxygenation is required. The yeast has already been "packaed" with its own primary nutrient supply. I would suggest you DO NOT use your drill stirrer but rather employ a more gentle rousing. I have always found a s/s pasta spoon (the one with all the holes in it) is an ideal implement to use. For liquid yeasts however you do need a lot of O2 and I would stick with the mecahnical stirring for those.

Some bedtime reading for you on the VDK formation (diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione). This article is now quite old but it was the basis for the late George Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science" published in 1999 http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi...sue1.2/fix.html

Wes

 

[Goose]

G'day lads.

Warren, pretty much most of my beers turn out clear though I do get the occasional chill haze in some of them. I am still experimenting with the Craftbrewer filter which of course accelarates the clarification process somewhat but I'm yet to be convinced on whether I am pulling out any flavour at the same time (sorry to digress).

Points noted on wet vs dry yeast but it cant hurt to try, from other reading some swear by the difference. First things first though, putting down aan Ale with Amarillo hops this weekend, fermenter and parts will soak in Coopers Sodium percarbonate sanitiser overnight as will the receiving keg when its done.

Goose

 

[warrenlw63]

Goose.

Was this happening before or after you started filtering?

Warren -

 

[lou]

I just thought of another thing - do you dechlorintate your water? - where are you goose? Brissy water where I live is heavily chlorinated so I add sod met to kill the chloramines and let them evapourate overnite or at least for a few hours

lou

 

[BenH]

There is nothing wrong with dried yeasts - you would be very surprised to see how many commercial breweries use them. There does need to be however an understanding of the best methods of useage. For the original pitching, very little oxygenation is required. The yeast has already been "packaed" with its own primary nutrient supply. I would suggest you DO NOT use your drill stirrer but rather employ a more gentle rousing. I have always found a s/s pasta spoon (the one with all the holes in it) is an ideal implement to use. For liquid yeasts however you do need a lot of O2 and I would stick with the mecahnical stirring for those.

Wes,

This is the first time that I've read that dry yeasts don't require much oxygenation. I thought that all yeasts (regardless of dry/liquid) needed oxygen to multiply - and as we know, the more yeast, the quicker the ferment and the less chance of any nasties taking control of the brew.

So is oxygenation for dry yeasts a waste of time?


Goose,

I've found that with plastic fermenters, I can clean them, sanitise, etc and there's no smell, but then if they're left for a while, some smell does come out of the plastic.

What does your sanitiser smell like? Potentially, if it's strong smelling, your nose could become de-sensitised while you're sanitising, and you can't detect any slight residual smell (but can detect it later in the finished beer).

Anyway, looks like there are a lot of options regarding the source of your off-taste. If you're able to do small batches, I would suggest going back to bare basics and then adding in additional steps (e.g. filtering)one-at-a-time.

Good luck with working it out, whatever you do - and let the rest of us know!

Cheers, BenH.

 

[Goose]

Filtration

No, fraid that aint the cause Warren. Its there filtered or otherwise.

Just wondering how chlorine can affect beer taste, and how it can stay there after a 60 minute boil (I do full boils)....

Residual chlorine from a sanitizer... that I can buy... the experiments continue.


Will let you know.

Goose

 

[warrenlw63]

Goose.

Maybe lose your current sanitiser which is starting to sound like the culprit and use Iodophor. Works for me. :beerbang:

Warren -