Using The Hot Tap For Mash Water

[QldKev]

I mentioned it in the other thread, but though I would also post find my finding here.

I brewed for a while, heating water from scratch. Thought I would save some time (and money as our HWS used off peak power), and after a search on here for "hws system" I found heaps of results saying go for it (try the search using the google option, heaps of good info about metals etc). So I started using it. I no chill so I may be fermenting / drinking any brew in any order. A couple of months later, I noticed a taste in some brews and not others, when I check over my brew notes I found all the brews from the HWS had that taste about them. I stopped using the HWS from that point.

I think the issue with the HWS is there are so many different ones out there. Mine was an old style elec storage, I'm not sure how old it was but I owned the house for 9 years and never replaced it in that time, I didn't even replace the sacrificial anode. Maybe more modern tanks may give off less taste? Also if you are only brewing beers over powered by hops, or beers with huge malt / hop schedules, then you probably will not pick up a lot anyway.

Recently(last Oct) we have moved into a new house with a brand new solar hot water system. Up here I haven't even needed to turn on the booster yet. I'm thinking of giving it another go for a brew, as it's water sitting there which has been heated for free. But I want to get my new system sorted first, then I'll give it a try.

Before using it I'll give it the taste test.
On a brew day when your heating water in the HLT (or brew pot if BIAB) anyway,
Get a cup of water from the HWS and let it cool to room temp
Get a cup of water from the HLT and let it cool to room temp. (aim for the same temp as the HWS)
Once both are cool do a blind side by side taste test. (you can do a three way or what ever system you want to use)

QldKev

edit: Just though about the "saving money" and did the maths
For my 82L HLT is takes 2 x 2200w elements about 1 hr to get up to temp. So about 4400w of energy @ 25c kw/h or about $1.10c. And that is up to strike temp, whereas the HWS still needs some heating. So for under $1 not really worth worry about the cost saving in my opinion. It becomes just a time saver.

 

[Dave70]

As a Plumber we were taught that HWS water was non-potable (not fit for human consumption)
As pointed out previously there can be be a high mineral content from corrosion
& after changing many of them it is not unusual to get a 10L bucket of crap & sludge out of them when draining
If the temp control is poor then there is also a bacterial risk as well
You may well argue that its going to be boiled anyway
But to me it would be similar to using brackish water from a puddle ...... it`ll work, but its not really ideal

If hot water was truly unfit for human consumption, you wouldn't have it as an option to consume. I cant say we were ever taught this.
I've done plenty of HWS replacements and yes, that grubby stuff that inevitably stains your shirt / customers driveway / ute is truly rank. If you've ever worked on ductile iron water mains, you'll know the story isn't much better. Most would switch to bottled water if they saw what was inside those pipes.
I think the issue with most folks is particulate contamination, which easily filtered out.
Cryptosporidium outbreaks may be a different story.

I don't care any more as I'm on tank water, and most likely drinking a soup of dead frogs and birdshit.

 

[Jazzafish]

Yep, add the grist to the water.

If you have an, over the side style, immersion element, than why not heat your strike water in your MT? makes sense to me.

:icon_cheers:

:icon_offtopic:
I used to do this in my old system. Works really well, just add the grain slow and stir. The main reason I did it this way was to limit the mash tun's thermal mass and consistency over the seasons. IE: A cold mash tun will absorb more of the strike waters heat (I know people preheat their mashtuns to compensate)... also a transfer via a hose/gravity will loose heat. So your strike temp will be lower than normal if you try this.

 

[QldKev]

If hot water was truly unfit for human consumption, you wouldn't have it as an option to consume. I cant say we were ever taught this.
I've done plenty of HWS replacements and yes, that grubby stuff that inevitably stains your shirt / customers driveway / ute is truly rank. If you've ever worked on ductile iron water mains, you'll know the story isn't much better. Most would switch to bottled water if they saw what was inside those pipes.
I think the issue with most folks is particulate contamination, which easily filtered out.
Cryptosporidium outbreaks may be a different story.

I don't care any more as I'm on tank water, and most likely drinking a soup of dead frogs and birdshit.

At least with the dead frogs in the brew you don't need to do a protein rest. :lol:


More I think about it, I may not try using the HWS water again.

 

[bum]

If you've ever worked on ductile iron water mains, you'll know the story isn't much better. Most would switch to bottled water if they saw what was inside those pipes.

The ends of PVC mains aren't any better if there's not a service close by. Couldn't believe the smell the first time I cracked one. Thought it was sewerage.

 

[Bribie G]

On the point of Aluminium, a lot of the urban mythology surrounding it comes from the old furphy that it promotes Alzheimer's Disease.

In fact Aluminium is one of the most common elements in the environment, Aluminium Silicate is a major component of most clays.
The reason that God gave us hairs up our nose was to filter out dust particles in the environment so whenever you pass a roadworks, do some gardening or just out and about milking a cow, pulling a plough, in fact I'm getting it now,

NO not VB but a little dose of Aluminium as you sniff and swallow
Id bet that more aluminium passes through most people's bodies in a month than they would ever get from domestic sources in a lifetime.

FWIW my hws is fairly modern and I always use the hot, plus a bit of Gypsum or CaCl2 except when doing a comp brew or something a bit sophisticated that has to have a precise water profile, then I trot out the RO gear.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

My hotwater system is a solar thing that sits on the roof (<2 years old, as the 1970s one in my house crapped it - the bottom rusted off and sent hot water everywhere and my landlord replaced it).

However, I've never used hotwater.

Given the water has seemed to be harder and more alkaline since the flood, I reckon one may deliberately use hot water to get softer water when brewing something like a Boh Pils.

Given I brew more high hopped APA and British style beers, I generally stick with the tap water, as it is generally close enough to what I want it to be, without pfaffing about with chem adjustment.

Goomba

 

[seamad]

Just pulled out my tds meter.
I am on tank water. Have a 20+ yr old gas storage hws. All water goes through a 10 micron and kitchen through a carbon filter.
Hws 24 ppm
Normal cold tap 13 ppm
Carbon 8 ppm ( over a year old and needs replacing).

With a new carbon filter usually 6 and under so close to double ppm for each system. Whether this translates to other systems i have no idea.


With reference to copper cookware, it has to be regularly tin plated so food does not contact the copper

Cheers
Sean

 

[Flash_DG]

On the point of Aluminium, a lot of the urban mythology surrounding it comes from the old furphy that it promotes Alzheimer's Disease.

In fact Aluminium is one of the most common elements in the environment, Aluminium Silicate is a major component of most clays.
The reason that God gave us hairs up our nose was to filter out dust particles in the environment so whenever you pass a roadworks, do some gardening or just out and about milking a cow, pulling a plough, in fact I'm getting it now,

NO not VB but a little dose of Aluminium as you sniff and swallow
Id bet that more aluminium passes through most people's bodies in a month than they would ever get from domestic sources in a lifetime.

FWIW my hws is fairly modern and I always use the hot, plus a bit of Gypsum or CaCl2 except when doing a comp brew or something a bit sophisticated that has to have a precise water profile, then I trot out the RO gear.

Also have a look at the active ingredient of antacids and deoderant

 

[iralosavic]

Just pulled out my tds meter.
I am on tank water. Have a 20+ yr old gas storage hws. All water goes through a 10 micron and kitchen through a carbon filter.
Hws 24 ppm
Normal cold tap 13 ppm
Carbon 8 ppm ( over a year old and needs replacing).

With a new carbon filter usually 6 and under so close to double ppm for each system. Whether this translates to other systems i have no idea.


With reference to copper cookware, it has to be regularly tin plated so food does not contact the copper

Cheers
Sean

Your last comment is only partially correct. Copper cookware is commonly tin-plated or nowdays, stainless steel plated to make it more versatile (ie you can cook acidic foods in it), however, there is still a wide variety of uncoated copper cookware available - the most common use being for making jam. Many traditional professional kitchens still use uncoated copper cookware for many dishes.

 

[Aces High]

I had a solar hot water system installed on my shed specifically for home brewing. I left the tempering valves etc off and I get 66 degree water straight out of the tap. I love it and haven't noticed any taste changes

I regards to anodes, in WA (and QLD) there are a lot of thermosyphon solar systems (TS systems) where you have the tank and collectors on the roof and a number of these are actually stainless tanks, not glass. solarhart, edwards & conergy all do stainless units. I dont think these units have annodes from memory or they dont have aluminium annodes.. can't remember exactly.

They all still end up with the crap in them, but the system is filled and drawn from the top or middle of the tank so the crap drops out of suspension and just accumulates at the bottom. Its like the yeast in a keg, there is crap at the bottom, but you can still put crystal clear beer from just above it.

 

[Dave70]

Also have a look at the active ingredient of antacids and deoderant

I'll save you the bother, they're perfectly safe if used as directed.

 

[Gar]

Very interesting thread, I've never really thought about it to be honest, I've always used the hot water to save time but looking back I have noticed that my hot water takes a little time to "settle" in a glass.

I think I'll be grabbing a timed power supply when I get the chance....

 

[Flash_DG]

I'll save you the bother, they're perfectly safe if used as directed.

Yeah I meant that they are also a high source of Aluminium that a lot of people don't know about

 

[QldKev]

Aluminum is good for you... it's bs, I don't have Alzheimer's from my pots

what were we talking about

 

[Bribie G]

All those old two-packs-a-day of Quickeze chewers (Before they invented Zantac) are still bright as a button.

 

[cam89brewer]

I think the only circumstance where it wouldn't be suitable would be if you were using a standard hot water service for your house as I refuse to drink water from the hot tap where I live. When my brother got his hot water tank replaced when draining the remaining water was left with a rusty sludge and have always been lead to believe that rust is probably not the best thing to be ingesting... and have heard that it is just a common thing to happen over time.

 

[1974Alby]

I think the only circumstance where it wouldn't be suitable would be if you were using a standard hot water service for your house

what else would you use??? :huh: Im sure thats what 99% of HWS users use!

 

[iralosavic]

In summary, I'm inclined to stick with cold water, but I might do a side by side comparison of two beers of the exact same recipe and see if I can tell the difference. That being said, apparently I'm still "poisoning myself" even if I can't taste it.

 

[fergi]

as usual we have many varying opinions on a subject,

i have tried it a few years back using hot water from the HWS but it was only kit beers then it was 2 liters and boiled in a jug,.
i thought i could detect a different taste but in hind sight it was probably my kit beer, however i did run a glass of hot water from the HWS and a glass from the cold water tap, put both in the fridge and tried them a couple of days later.

now there was a real difference in taste with the HWS glass definately tainted, mind you this was an electric storage system probably ten years old.

for you guys that are using it this way from your HWS ,try that test for yourself, in saying that HWS may be bad for your beer but i guess we eat and drink stuff thats far more concentrated in crap, vegies from the supermarket i would think have had so much pesticide and fertilisers poured into them surely they are still laced with it.

fergi

 

[Malted]

have always been lead to believe that rust is probably not the best thing to be ingesting

Ah a bit of iron (iron3 oxide) in your diet is meant to be good innit? Would save you from having to eat so many vegies...

 

[SJW]

As a Plumber we were taught that HWS water was non-potable (not fit for human consumption)
As pointed out previously there can be be a high mineral content from corrosion
& after changing many of them it is not unusual to get a 10L bucket of crap & sludge out of them when draining
If the temp control is poor then there is also a bacterial risk as well
You may well argue that its going to be boiled anyway
But to me it would be similar to using brackish water from a puddle ...... it`ll work, but its not really ideal

There you go, that should be the end of the debate right there.
I would never ever use hot water from any type of hot water storage system. When I had the 3v system I used the hot water tap then as it was a instant/continuous gas hot water system.

 

[ianmowat]

we have solar hws and rainwater and do not use it for brewing.....have u ever cooled and tasted it????

tastes like the anode would...a few cents worth of gas is a good tradeoff....ian

 

[RobboMC]

I remember reading somewhere in Palmer's book about how evil even a small amount of Aluminium is to the brewing process and therefore to make sure you use a stainless boil pot and NOT an aluminium one.

Anyone know more about the Aluminium limits in the brew water before te brew turns to lawn food.

Also, years ago a very good doctor told us NOT to use pre packaged soy milk for our infants due to the Aluminium content. But none of your infants consume your beer I assume.

 

[Flewy]

I remember reading somewhere in Palmer's book about how evil even a small amount of Aluminium is to the brewing process and therefore to make sure you use a stainless boil pot and NOT an aluminium one.

Nope. From How to Brew, Appendix B (web version), the highlighting is mine:


Cleaning Stainless Steel and Aluminum
For general cleaning, mild detergents or percarbonate-based cleaners are best for steel and aluminum. Bleach should be avoided because the high pH of a bleach solution can cause corrosion of aluminum and to a lessor degree of stainless steel. Do not clean aluminum shiny bright or use bleach to clean an aluminum brewpot because this removes the protective oxides and can result in a metallic taste. This taste-detectable level of aluminum is not hazardous. There is more aluminum in a common antacid tablet than would be present in a batch of beer made in an aluminum pot.


Now I'm not disagreeing with you on whether or not aluminium is harmless, I'm saying that Palmer who is a metalurgist has no problem with aluminium pots for brewing beer.

 

[stux]

It comes down to your system.

My HWS is a virtually new solar stainless steel tank (no glass, no anode, paid extra) with instant gas boost. I have not been able to detect a difference in chilled glasses, AND most importantly, the water pours clear, not cloudy, like so many other HWS systems.

Plus, it draws from the top.

 

[manticle]

I remember reading somewhere in Palmer's book about how evil even a small amount of Aluminium is to the brewing process and therefore to make sure you use a stainless boil pot and NOT an aluminium one.

Which page?