Using Ph meter with ezy water calc

[Truman42]

I've always used ezy water calculator for my brews along with Ph strips. Often my mash Ph was under 5 (even with pale ales) but I put it down to cheap Chinese Ph strips.
Ive recently brought one of the Ph meters in the bulk buy and tried it out on my last brew. A black IPA with base malt, carafa 3, medium crystal and Rye. I added everything to ezy water calc, added my salts and it said I should have a Ph reading of 5.54.
After 15 mins I checked the mash with my meter and it was 4.61. I added some chalk and checked again 10 mins later and it was still only 4.69. I did this again but couldnt seem to get it to rise anymore so left it at that.

I considered my water report might be out (Cardinia dam) so phoned SEW and got the latest figures. I put these into ezy water calc for this brew but it didnt change the PH at all on the spreadsheet.

(I didnt calibate my meter before use, but it was brand new and came with a calibration certificate.)

Anyone else found the same thing when using a meter compared with ezy water calc? I only added around 4 grams calcium and 6 grams gypsum so I cant see how my Ph could be so low compared to ezy water calc? Even without my salts on the spreadsheet ezy water calc says my ph should still be around 5.6. (Its as if ezy waters calculations of the grain bills effect on PH are way off)

Another brewer suggested that next brew I mash in without my salts, wait ten minutes and take a reading. Then apply the offset to ezy water calcs reading. Then add my salts into ezy water to get the Ph right, add them to the mash, wait another 10 mins and check, then do it again if its still not right.
But if I had to do this 2 or 3 times to get my mash PH spot on my mash would then be almost over. Surely there is a point of time in the mash where its too late to adjust anymore?

One other question is with regards to pouring the calibration solution into a container when calibrating your meter? Can you just pour it into any plastic container or does it have to be glass? Also if you rinse the probe between the first solution and the 2nd solution wouldn't the water on the probe effect the reading in the second solution?

Thanks gents.

 

[verysupple]

I found EZ Water to be pretty poor at predicting mash pH. I only used pH stips, not a meter. There are reports suggesting some strips might be off by ~0.3 but there was no consistency between them and EZ Water - sometimes the EZ Water was way high, sometimes way low and sometimes about right. So if it was the strips offset that wou;dn't happen. On that front, I suggest trying Bru'n Water. It's a bit more in depth but definitely worth the extra effort to learn it.

Assuming your example was a batch for ~23 L, then 4 g "calcium" (what sort of crystal did you mean? Calcium chloride?) and 6 g of gypsum may well have given a very low pH considering it was a black IPA and would have had a fair chunk of Carafa III. But you should definitely calibrate your pH meter befer every use. I'm sure the instruction manual will say the same. Check out a Facebook post by Bru'n Water about caring for your pH meter for more info (there's 2 parts).

Chalk isn't very good for adjusting your pH up. Without dissolving it in acid first it really does bugger all. Some people estimate that when you use it undissolved it's about 50 % effective. Other people say it's much lower and doesn't do much at all. As long as you don't need to adjust the pH too much, baking soda is a better option.

 

[SimoB]

Hey Truman,

I live out in Vermont on Yarra Vally water, are you near there? I'm struggling to find a water report. Love to be able to start getting accurate PH too.

Sorry a bit off. :icon_offtopic:
I'm using PH strips to. And not even using a caluclator. I wonder if beersmith would be better for this?

 

[TheWiggman]

What's your tap water pH as measured by your meter? Do you measure this first, then put the measured water pH into the calculator, and adjust accordingly?

Ed: just noticed EZ doesn't have this. However it would be worth doing because regardless of the minerals, if you already have very acidic water then naturally you will get low pH when mashing.
Brun Water has a feature in it that will determine bicarbonate and carbonate content based on measured pH, assuming this isn't in your water report.

 

[danestead]

I use Ez water calculator and have recently bought the Hanna PH meter with 0.05 accuracy. My water is RODI (pure H2O) plus salts which I add. On the one brew I've done so far with my PH meter, the Ez water calculators predicted PH was extremely accurate. Off the top of my head I can't remember the exact difference between the predicted and actual PH but I think it was something like 0.02.

I took a heap of measurements that day at all different stages of the brew process. I determined that it took slightly longer than 5 mins for the grain to change the waters PH however by 10 mins it had stabilised so it sounds like testing it after 10 mins like you did is bang on.

I would suggest calibrating your meter prior to each brew day as best practise as although it has been certified calibrated etc the probes drift over time and are only as good as the last time they were calibrated.

In regards to washing between readings and calibration solution, you could by some distilled or demineralised water from the supermarket if you want it to be super accurate.

I would also suggest you do some research from a credible article regarding automatic temp compensation is you aren't fully up to speed on it as yet. You will need to keep reading it until it makes sense. As simply as I can put it, there are 2 things going on. 1. The probe produces an error in the PH reading if you test the PH of your mash at a temperature which isn't the same as what you calibrated your probe at. If your meter has ATC it will take care of that for you. 2. The actual PH of the mash or beer physically changes (this is not an error in the reading) as the temperature changes. Your meter cannot adjust for that. PH is normally stated at room temperature. There is roughly a 0.2ish lower PH in the mash if you test it at normal mash temps (60-70ish) compared to room temp (20-25ish). Apologies if you already understand this. This may be part of the reason your PH seems out of whack.

 

[Truman42]

@ verysupple.. I have started playing around with Brun water and although it seems like a lot more to learn I will persevere with it. Yes it was calcium chloride I added. And I had read about chalk being only 50% efective but that was all I had at the time. Might get some slaked lime for next time. I will check out that Fb post by brun water about Ph meters...Cheers.

@SimoB..No mate Im down in Lyndhurst. Just phone SEW thats what I did and he emailed me the details.

@Thewiggman.. Alkalinity as CACO3 is in my water report, but I might try adding my ph results from my fresh water into Brun and see if it differs from what my report says.

@danestead..I recently read a post on here about ATC with Ph meters an so always measure my Ph at room temp once the mash sample has been cooled. But cheers anyway.

 

[Wolfman]

You need to calibrate your meter every time you use it. Do it before you brew for the day and you should be fine.

 

[dicko]

I generally use EZ water with Ro water as danestead and I also find it very accurate.

I have used Bruin and with pretty close to the same results.

I wouldn't really trust what the water supply company tell you about the water. I think you will find that there will be quite a variation at times.

Calibration is important as is temperature. Even if you PH meter is ATC I would still cool the sample to 20 deg c and calibrate with PH 7 and PH 4 at the same temp.

A test would be the use some RO water or clean rain water and then test how accurate your salt additions are.

Another thing that can be overlooked is equipment being used that has some residual Starsan or similar which when used may change the PH off the mash.
Ensure all sanitising and cleaning residues are removed with clean water before brewing. The same goes for the vessels that you use for calibration.
I use those plastic beer cups that you buy at the supermarket in bulk tube type packs. They are cheap to be able to just throw away after use.

On a different note I now always steep the dark grains for a dark beer so that I am not trying to adjust the PH up to allow for the acidic mash. I just add the liquid that was steeped and the dark grain to the sparge after the mash.

 

[GalBrew]

I have had the exact same issues as the OP with Ezy water calc. I do calibrate my pH meter and I have found that my mash pH at 10min is always much lower than what the calc tells me it should be. I have brewed dark and light beers over the last few brews and I usually aim for a mash pH at around 5.4 (at room temp). I have been getting actual mash pH readings around the 4.9-5.0 reading which is becoming quite annoying.

For the record I get my water from Silvan. Perhaps the mineral report is no longer correct. I have been toying with getting one of John Palmers new water testing kits and seeing if the report matches the kit.

 

[Black n Tan]

I have found both EzyWater and Burin Water correlate well with my Hanna pH meter results with Melbourne water. I would check the calibration of you meter. Just dip some into the pH 7 buffer first to see if was in fact reading accurately then go through the calibration process. What was your grain bill? I know when making a dark beer my estimated pH can be considerably below pH5.0, so I add the dark grains at the end of the mash.

 

[Truman42]

I have found both EzyWater and Burin Water correlate well with my Hanna pH meter results with Melbourne water. I would check the calibration of you meter. Just dip some into the pH 7 buffer first to see if was in fact reading accurately then go through the calibration process. What was your grain bill? I know when making a dark beer my estimated pH can be considerably below pH5.0, so I add the dark grains at the end of the mash.

Grain bill was

6.00 kg Pale malt
1.75 kg Rye malt
.47 kg Carafa special 3
.47 kg Crystal 60.

 

[dicko]

Hi Truman,

Go back to the above recipe and the EZ Water spreadsheet and remove the Carafa 3 from the grain list and see what it does to the PH. on the spreadsheet.

I found that stuffing around with chalk was when I was not accurate with the PH

 

[Black n Tan]

Grain bill was

6.00 kg Pale malt
1.75 kg Rye malt
.47 kg Carafa special 3
.47 kg Crystal 60.

With that grain bill and soft Melbourne water with some small calcium additions, you would not expect a mash pH that low. So it is probably the calibration of the pH meter. Also you will notice that adding chalk did sweet FA. The reason is that the chalk will not dissolve and as such is pretty useless to us. h34r: Bicarb is a better choice but be mindful of the sodium contribution.

 

[Truman42]

Hi Truman,

Go back to the above recipe and the EZ Water spreadsheet and remove the Carafa 3 from the grain list and see what it does to the PH. on the spreadsheet.

I found that stuffing around with chalk was when I was not accurate with the PH

Well Im home now so was able to get my ezy water calc for this recipe. Here are some screen shots.

This is before I've added any salts.



This is after Ive added salts to suit the flavour profile I want.



And this is if I take the carafa 3 out. (and remove my salt addiitons)



And finally with carafa 3 removed but my salt additions in there.




Its starting to look more like my ph meter was out so I will make sure I calibrate it next time before use. One question on that how much of the probe needs to be covered with calibration solution? Can you get away with just the tip or does the entire probe need to be covered? I don't want to waste the solution if I don't have too.

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

 

[danestead]

I use a shot glass and 2/3 fill it with calibration solution so I'm only using about 20mL at a time. This way the whole bulb is being covered and also I'm not using much solution.

Just remember that your solution has a best before date. At 20mL per brew day, depending on how often you brew, you will come close to going out of date b4 it's used up.