Using enzymes for mashing

[TimT]

Aren't these enzymes mainly intended for those times when you want to do a mash with non-barley grains, ie, ones that will give you sugars if you add an enzyme but which don't have the enzyme present in the grain naturally? I'm thinking stuff like sorghum beer, millet beer, quinoa beer, etc. (Happy to be corrected if some of those grains do contain a suitable enzyme).

I'd always assumed the amylase enzymes were always present in the barley and stayed there during the malting until it became useful in the mash; now, if I read comments on this topic correctly, it would seem I have been mistaken. So does the malting actually *create* those enzymes?

 

[Not For Horses]

I've malted sorghum and brewed with it. It definitely contains enzymes.

 

[philmud]

Interesting. You couldn't create crystal-type flavors by toasting the barley. You have to malt the grain to get the sugars that allow caramelization. Other than that I'm now growing curious to see what flavors one COULD achieve.

What if you exposed a proportion of the grain to enzymes and then toasted them? I'm still playing devil's advocate, but it seems to me that exposure to pre-existing enzymes would be a more efficient way of producing sugars than steeping and germinating grain. Presumably one could learn to mimic the idiosyncratic flavours that are produced through the traditional malting process.

Off topic: I bet this isn't the first or last barney that the Reinheitsgabot has caused.

 

[Not For Horses]

You could expose the grains to those enzymes but they will be looking at complex starches that are locked away covered in a skin of beta glucans and other stuff. What they really want is simple starches to munch on.

 

[old mike]

Malting naturally produces enzymes neccesary to convert the starch from unmalted grain into sugars. When chocolate malt is used, the temperatures needed to roast the grain drastically reduce the DP necessary for conversion. Enzymes would allow you to keep the flavor and provide the conversion required.

 

[Not For Horses]

old mike, do you mean using, for example, 90% raw barley, 10% chocolate malt and enzymes?
This would still not taste the same as 90% malt and 10% choc.

 

[bradsbrew]

Fairly big clean up. This is in the technical area please keep things reasonably on topic. Difference of opinion is fine and creates good discussion. Let's leave the personal insults out though.

Cheers

 

[Mardoo]

What if you exposed a proportion of the grain to enzymes and then toasted them? I'm still playing devil's advocate, but it seems to me that exposure to pre-existing enzymes would be a more efficient way of producing sugars than steeping and germinating grain. Presumably one could learn to mimic the idiosyncratic flavours that are produced through the traditional malting process.

Off topic: I bet this isn't the first or last barney that the Reinheitsgabot has caused.

if you did it with rolled and soaked grains it might get you some sugars. Wouldn't work with whole corns though, as NFH pointed out.

 

[jaypes]

I read somewhere that munich was the highest kilned grain to be used as a base malt due to dimished enzyme level / DP

 

[lukiferj]

Fairly big clean up. This is in the technical area please keep things reasonably on topic. Difference of opinion is fine and creates good discussion. Let's leave the personal insults out though.

Cheers

Looks like there's more work to do

 

[bradsbrew]

Looks like there's more work to do

PM sent to offenders.

 

[Kodos]

Enzymes are frequently used in commercial brewing to make up for a high percentage of starchy adjuncts - if you were to try and replicate one of these beers it would be a good way to go, IMHO. (And I'm not about to weigh into a debate on why someone might want to do this, each to their own)


Likewise something like Chicha - the corn-based fermented "beer" from Peru needs enzymes (unless you want to chew and spit all your grist).

As far as malting delivering a lot of the flavour, unmalted grains can give their own, different flavour, worth experimenting with.

I've come across a few brewers who've wanted to brew a beer with grain off a family/friend's farm - enzymes would enable this without having to DIY malting.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Question.

Do enzymes muliply in the mash or is there only a set level ( with regard to malt type )

Would you need more munich than say a high enzyme ale/pilsner malt to convert the same amount of grain in the same time period.

 

[Rurik]

I think enzymes production finishes once germination is halted.

 

[Kodos]

My (admittedly limited) understanding is that enzymes do not "reproduce" as yeast does. They denature, and go the other way.

This is why grains come with a rating for enzyme levels (or diastatic power, measured on the Lintner scale), and you'll need a certain amount to mash a certain amount of starch.

for example, pilsner malt can convert about four times its own weight, but malts like Munich or Vienna only just have enough diastatic power to convert themselves. There are calculators around to help work out the diastatic power of your grist. If you were trying something experimental where the diastatic power was too low, commercially produced enzymes could help get you over the line.

I've sometimes wondered if enzymes could be used to good effect in extract brewing - if you wanted to go all malt, for example, but wanted a drier beer than malted extract would let you go (I think many extracts are made highly dextrinous so extract brewers can "top up" with simple sugars). You could mix the extract with water, warm to the temperature best suited to the enzyme (it might or might not be normal mashing temps, I'd have to check the manufacturer's specs) add the enzyme and let it do its thing. You could then heat it up above "mash out" temps to stop it converting too much, and proceed as normal. A mini-mash without the mess, perhaps? (I like the grain/mess etc tho ).

 

[old mike]

Does anyone know where to obtain enzymes neccessary for mashing?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Does anyone know where to obtain enzymes neccessary for mashing?

From malted barley.........

 

[old mike]

Would have been nice to get a serious answer for a serious question, but I guess it doesnt take much to get you guys OT on this forum

 

[TimT]

I'll cop that since I love going OT. But Stu did give a serious answer. That's where the enzymes come from: hold the malted barley in water at around 65-68 degrees C and you'll get plenty of enzymatic action. That's why when you want to get sugar from other grains that don't have enzymes in them , it's often recommended you add them to a malted barley mash.

Enzymes can also be found at some brew stores, QED.

 

[Parks]

It could be that you use 50-50 malted base malt with your unmalted barley?