Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Pumpy]

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?

Cheers
Andrew

[post="123201"][/post]​

I suppose they could,

I think they are allowing it to cool to 80C during that time the trub would drop out well ,then packing when it is a bit safer to work with .

They probably build in a higher proportion of wastage in the cost .

But then again you dont see `any `trub at all in there kits .

pumpy

 

[Weizguy]

But then again you dont see `any `trub at all in there kits .

pumpy

[post="123252"][/post]​

Pumpy, although it's been over 12 months since I bought an ESB kit, I have seen trub in all the kits I bought. There wasn't much trub in most, but the Belgian jerry can that I kept for over 12 months had the largest amount. The beer still came out quite clear.

Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer, or is it just my technique? (Hmm, maybe that's why I stick to weizens where cloudiness enhances the beer).

Seth, use a big piece of Iodophor-soaked cotton in the airlock to act as a sterile filter for the air that will enter the fermenter during cool-down. Pack it down, but not too firmly. I always do this with the starters I make in my 6 liter Erlenmeyer.

As a test, I have a .5 liter jar of wort sitting on a shelf that is now 16 months old. It has a cotton filter and the wort still looks perfect. The cotton has long since dried, but I believe it is the fibers that trap any bacteria or spores from entering. It creates what I believe is called a "treacherous path" in the microbe biz.

I've also used this method successfully on autoclaved mushroom spawn.

And as I mentioned, it also makes moot the anaerobic condition concerns.

[post="122606"][/post]​

From my Univerity daze, I recall that the term you may be looking for is "tortuous" path.

Sounds like the result demonstrates the effectiveness of the technique. May I be permitted to know why you have a wort sample that is so old, just hanging about?

In the Biology lab at Newcastle Uni, they used to sterilise media in a flask with a cotton plug in the neck, and a piece of aluminium foil folded and squeezed around the neck of the bottle. Chuck the lot in an autoclave and cool before use. Too easy, with the right equipment.

Seeing that I don't have access to their autoclave (and glassware), I'll be looking seriously at the adaptation you have given me here, with maybe some alfoil "insurance".

Sweet!
Seth out

 

[Ken Man Do]

Seth, use a big piece of Iodophor-soaked cotton in the airlock to act as a sterile filter for the air that will enter the fermenter during cool-down. Pack it down, but not too firmly. I always do this with the starters I make in my 6 liter Erlenmeyer.

As a test, I have a .5 liter jar of wort sitting on a shelf that is now 16 months old. It has a cotton filter and the wort still looks perfect. The cotton has long since dried, but I believe it is the fibers that trap any bacteria or spores from entering. It creates what I believe is called a "treacherous path" in the microbe biz.

I've also used this method successfully on autoclaved mushroom spawn.

And as I mentioned, it also makes moot the anaerobic condition concerns.

[post="122606"][/post]​

From my Univerity daze, I recall that the term you may be looking for is "tortuous" path.

Sounds like the result demonstrates the effectiveness of the technique. May I be permitted to know why you have a wort sample that is so old, just hanging about?

In the Biology lab at Newcastle Uni, they used to sterilise media in a flask with a cotton plug in the neck, and a piece of aluminium foil folded and squeezed around the neck of the bottle. Chuck the lot in an autoclave and cool before use. Too easy, with the right equipment.

Seeing that I don't have access to their autoclave (and glassware), I'll be looking seriously at the adaptation you have given me here, with maybe some alfoil "insurance".

Sweet!
Seth out

[post="123275"][/post]​

Well, ok, tortuous it is. But I should get partial credit! :lol:

The wort sample I mentioned was "canned" as a test on 12-19-2004. Here it is today:

The lid has a tiny nail hole in it, with a stub of small copper tubing epoxied over it. That's where the cotton gets stuffed.

Also, this wort was not pressure cooked. I figured pressure cooking is to kill botulism spores, and seeing as how this wort is in an aerobic environment, the spores aren't a worry. I believe this wort to still be in a sterile condition.

 

[Darren]

Well, ok, tortuous it is. But I should get partial credit! :lol:

The wort sample I mentioned was "canned" as a test on 12-19-2004. Here it is today:

The lid has a tiny nail hole in it, with a stub of small copper tubing epoxied over it. That's where the cotton gets stuffed.

Also, this wort was not pressure cooked. I figured pressure cooking is to kill botulism spores, and seeing as how this wort is in an aerobic environment, the spores aren't a worry. I believe this wort to still be in a sterile condition.

[post="123394"][/post]​

Hey Ken man,
Not infected but oxidised yes! Wort does not store at all well in the presence of oxygen.

cheers
Darren

 

[T.D.]

Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer,

[post="123275"][/post]​

funnily enough, if anything I have been getting clearer beers after switching to no chiller. My first ever no chiller beer (which was ages back and was only done because I was brewing at a mate's house and had to get the wort home) stands as one of the best beers I have made (in my eyes ), from both a clarity and general quality perspective.

 

[bindi]

Must agree with T.D. .

 

[Pumpy]

Has anyone noted that no-chill produces a cloudy beer,

[post="123275"][/post]​

funnily enough, if anything I have been getting clearer beers after switching to no chiller. My first ever no chiller beer (which was ages back and was only done because I was brewing at a mate's house and had to get the wort home) stands as one of the best beers I have made (in my eyes ), from both a clarity and general quality perspective.

[post="123555"][/post]​

I have never had such clear wort to brew , "everyone is a winner " I am converted

Pumpy

 

[Ash in Perth]

My opinion:
(please excuse the fact that I havent read 23 pages of posts so it may not be new)

The faster the wort is chilled the better. At high temperature, chemical reactions are more frequent because the reaction kinetics are sped up. The cold break may not form correctly. The faster the chill, the more cold break precipitates out of solutions and flocculates. Cold break is about 50% protein, about 20% polyphenols and the majority of the rest is carbohydrates. remaining proteins can result in a hazy beer, which although may not be bad is not true to style for some beers. these and the polyphenols (which could stay as free phenols if the chilling is too slow) could have an adverse effect on the taste of the beer.

There is also the issue that slow chilling gives more time for microbes to get in and colonise your brew. if it is sealed when boiling hot then chilled this shouldnt be a problem.

This is all theoretical, if your own method works for you, dont change it. chemistry is never as simple as it seems and there could be other factors involved that i dont know about.

Large commerical and most modern microbreweries use counter flow type chillers for efficiency (re-cycling heat), saving time (obvious) and the reasons stated above. On the other hand, some of the worlds finest beers such as well known trappist breweries (except chimay and westmalle at least) and lambic breweries allow the wort to chill slowly in large shallow 'trays'.

Cheers! Ash

 

[Uncle Fester]

My opinion:
(please excuse the fact that I havent read 23 pages of posts so it may not be new)

The faster the wort is chilled the better. At high temperature, chemical reactions are more frequent because the reaction kinetics are sped up. The cold break may not form correctly. The faster the chill, the more cold break precipitates out of solutions and flocculates. Cold break is about 50% protein, about 20% polyphenols and the majority of the rest is carbohydrates. remaining proteins can result in a hazy beer, which although may not be bad is not true to style for some beers. these and the polyphenols (which could stay as free phenols if the chilling is too slow) could have an adverse effect on the taste of the beer.

There is also the issue that slow chilling gives more time for microbes to get in and colonise your brew. if it is sealed when boiling hot then chilled this shouldnt be a problem.

This is all theoretical, if your own method works for you, dont change it. chemistry is never as simple as it seems and there could be other factors involved that i dont know about.

Large commerical and most modern microbreweries use counter flow type chillers for efficiency (re-cycling heat), saving time (obvious) and the reasons stated above. On the other hand, some of the worlds finest beers such as well known trappist breweries (except chimay and westmalle at least) and lambic breweries allow the wort to chill slowly in large shallow 'trays'.

Cheers! Ash

[post="125225"][/post]​

Ash,
It appears that the beer that results from the no-chill method is clearer than the equivalent beer that has been chilled. Don't ask me why, I'm not a Bio-chemist, just going on the reported results.

As far as commercial brewerys force chilling their product, that is probably so they can get it into the bottle and onto the shelf quicker. How ever many thousand litres that they do in a batch would take a considerable time to cool to ambient temperature. Idle equipment is wasted money.

The potential for contamination has been done to death. It appears that there is no more risk to the wort, than there is to a commercial wort, Kit, or Kg of LME. All are vacuum sealed, which the no chill wort is as well, as long as it is placed in the container at 80 or so degrees.

At the end of the day, as more and more results come in, it appears that this process does not detract at all from the quality of the final product.

Of course, the overall quality of sanitation within your brewery is far more significant than the potential of a high heat/high sugar tolerant anaerobic infection getting into your wort.

M

 

[Ash in Perth]

Most of what you said i had already mentioned. And if it works for you, do it. chemistry is never straightr forward so results often come out different form theory.

Personally right now i use the no chiller method simpl because i have no chiller. but becasue im brewing smaller batches my brews chill in about an hour in a tub of ice water.

Cheers! Ash

 

[pint of lager]

Ash in Perth, take the time to go through all the pages, there is alot of very good information and links researched and posted. It will broaden your understanding of brewing. DMS, hot break and Pastuerisation are subjects covered. I understand on dialup it may take a while, but there are not many pictures to chew up bandwidth.

Cooling your wort in a chilled bath is a well known method and does not qualify under the no chill method. No chill means waiting for the wort to chill by air temp only and also encompasses leaving it for an extended period from days to weeks to months before aerating and pitching the yeast.

 

[Millet Man]

... leaving it for an extended period from days to weeks to months before aerating and pitching the yeast.

[post="125269"][/post]​

For interests sake I am just about to bottle my first no chill, it was a split batch with half being chilled and brewed straight away and the other half put in a cube for 6 weeks in the garage at 10-20C. It was only a low gravity brew at 1.032 as well.

I am drinking the CFC'd half of the batch now and it is quite nice.

The "no chill" part of the batch was about 5-10% trub in the cube but on fermenting (which proceeded with no problems) there was pretty much only yeast residue in the primary so I can only imagine that the trub was consumed in the process.

There was less trub in the primary than I normally get with the CFC but that is probably because I let the "no chill" sit longer after whirlpooling and was more diligent to not let any hot break into the cube.

The "no chill" half is crystal clear (it was after primary) and tasting good.

So 6 weeks in the cube at 1.032 OG worked fine, anyone pushed the boundary any further?

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Gerard_M]

So 6 weeks in the cube at 1.032 OG worked fine, anyone pushed the boundary any further?

[post="125304"][/post]​

I have 2 x ESB Fresh Wort Kits (Bock) from last year that my lazy mate hasn't been able to brew yet. I will brew them next week.
Cheers
Gerard

 

[Ray_Mills]

Hi
I have pushed the boundary to 4 months
Not a problem.
Ray

 

[Tony]

just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.

Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.

I will report back about haze but the first pull looked good..

all in all i find it a great way to free up my weekends.

I can brew 100 liters in a day where i only used to make 20 and had to brew almost every weeend which means less days brewing and more relaxing

cheers

 

[Pumpy]

just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.

Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.

[post="125362"][/post]​

Still a bit flat eh! Tony then its good enough for me .

Pumpy

 

[AnthonyMac]

just cracked a keg full of american brown ale that was in no chill cubes for 4 to 6 weeks.

Its still a bit flat but tasted great already.

I will report back about haze but the first pull looked good..

all in all i find it a great way to free up my weekends.

I can brew 100 liters in a day where i only used to make 20 and had to brew almost every weeend which means less days brewing and more relaxing

cheers

[post="125362"][/post]​

My first try at the no chill method which i will report back on soon, but TOny, you are obviously a wee slight of a piss head and should drink less.
AMac

 

[Jazzafish]

A friend of mine still hasn't fermented his Braidwood Project.... surely that will be a test when he gets around to it!

 

[Tony]

what makes you say that

Ive been called worse

cheers

 

[KoNG]

Have any of you regular "no Chillers" (i'm only at no: 3) tried racking the wort into your cube onto your aroma hops.? i was thinking of giving this a go. i gues it will give the the wort more time on the hops than if you whirlpool them out. then they wil just be 'racked off' (excuse pun) at fermenting time.
Any thoughts or issues...?