Users Of Polyclar

[andmat]

hi guys

i am new to using polyclar and i am are not sure what temp the water should be to mix the polyclar with, the craftbrew site said to use freshly boiled water. not sure if
i should cool it before mixing or mix it hot.

cheers
andrew

 

[felten]

I throw mine in dry (as per TB's advice) at the end of ferment, give it a little stir around to mix it and it should do the job.

If you've already mixed it in hot water, just throw it in and it won't cause any problems to the beer if it's a small volume.

 

[thesunsettree]

I dont cold crash in fermenter, i rack to keg add polyclar then chill min 24hr before filtering. I have added dry a few times with no obvious differences however i normally add to a cup of beer directly from fermenter stir briefly until dissolved and add to keg, then filter 24hrs or so later after cold.

Edit - spurlunk

Matt

 

[kevin_smevin]

instructions http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=726

 

[bum]

instructions http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=726

Those are the instructions he mentioned his his question, right? :blink:

Anyway, andmat, I assumed that the word "freshly" implied that the water is not cooled and have used it this way without ill effect - I'm sure the methods above work will too if they appeal.

 

[Bribie G]

I used to stir it for 20 mins etc but now I just hit it with boiling water in a small pyrex bowl and stir it into the top of the cold conditioning beer. I get such brilliant beer I'd never consider buying a filter.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hot or cold it wont matter. It will rehydrate faster in hot than cold water thats all.

Polyclar simply does not do its job until it is rehydrated. It will re-hydrate in hot water, cold water, or in the beer itself. The instructions on craftbrewer get you the best results in the least time. Add stirred, re-hydrated polyclar to an ice cold keg and by the time you have sealed it up and given it a shake, the polyclar has already done its job and is ready to filter out. Filter cold and give it a bit of the Ross method for carbonation and you could be drinking crystal clear chill haze free beer within an hour of it coming out of the primary fermenter.

Or you can toss the stuff into your secondary/bright keg dry, rack beer (cold or warm) ontop of it and leave it overnight - more or less the same result. Or throw it into your primary fermenter hydrated or not (note, yeast effects the performance of polyclar, so unless its quite clear you might well need more of the stuff to get the same result) and stir it gently into the top layer. It has to mix through and contact all the liquid... So techniques where you can give things a good stir are more sure fire.

It all works - the technique on craftbrewer is the "optimum" and the further you depart from that, the longer it takes and perhaps the higher dose of polyclar you need to get the job done. But it does indeed still work.

 

[Ironsides]

At the winery i worked at we just mixed it up in wine, then added it back to the tank. Also, we were always told that polyclar was really bad for your lungs, but then we were doing 20+Kg additions.

 

[Mikedub]

Palmer refers to polyclar as plastic dust, probably dont want that in your lungs, anyone know if its generally used in commercial beer brewing?

 

[Bribie G]

I know that for bright beers as made by the Megas, they tend to use diatomaceious earth (kieselguhr = fossilized diatoms, also used to pack acetylene cylinders to stop them exploding and an essential part of dynamite <end of useless trivia>) as a filtering bed and also use a membrane filter but I dunno about Polyclar or similar. TB would know.

 

[RdeVjun]

For a couple of batches I used Polyclar added dry to the secondary vessel and the beer racked in on top of it. First time, when I eventually drained it, the Polyclar was sitting there as a flat lump of goo, stuck to the bottom of the fermenter (hazed to buggery...). Next time I swirled it around a bit to get some mixing, but at that point I wasn't really wanting to oxidise the beer to stir in this stuff, so I now just add it on top of the beer going into secondary vessel, the small amount of agitation from the transfer operation seems to help distribute and rehydrate it as required.
The pyrex bowl method sounds quite effective though BribieG, many thanks for the tip! :icon_cheers:

 

[Wolfy]

Polyclar is just PVPP, which is otherwise known as Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone.

If the name alone does not tell you what it is, then I'm not sure what will.

 

[malt_shovel]

I know that for bright beers as made by the Megas, they tend to use diatomaceious earth (kieselguhr = fossilized diatoms, also used to pack acetylene cylinders to stop them exploding and an essential part of dynamite <end of useless trivia>) as a filtering bed and also use a membrane filter but I dunno about Polyclar or similar. TB would know.

From my reading on chill haze problems and solutions, I understand a lot of commercials use it to improve the flavour and visual stability of the beer that is likely to sit on the shelves for a long time before consumption. I read a study performed by a research group within teh Guiness brewery that tested colloidal (polyphenols + proteins coming together to give a visual haze) stability of their soon to be developed black lager beer using Polyclar against a control batch of the same beer, both aged artificially through high temps. So there is at least one major brewery that is at least investigating it's use. Not sure if it doing it commercially though.

My understanding is DE filters are used for removing yeast and in some cases bacteria that has made it into the process to improve shelf-life, while polyclar was developed more for removing polyphenols that contribute to chill (leading to permenant) haze by adsorbing them onto the surface, coagulating and floccing to the bottom of the vessel. Slightly different application, but seems to work to clear yeast and other "stuff" in homebrewing applications.

I am sure someone with more knowledge can chime in and correct some glaring mistakes above, but i think i got it right.

Cheers
:icon_chickcheers:

 

[Bribie G]

Most people actually eat a fair amount of it during their lifetimes, it's in a lot of tablets like nurofen where it's not an active ingredient so you wouldn't see it listed. Also in hair conditioners etc etc, and the Americans actually trialled an artificial blood plasma replacement made from it. I might get a fourth font fitted and just pour Polyclar Cordial as it's such a wonderful compound. :icon_cheers:

 

[Wolfy]

:icon_offtopic:
No need for an extra font, just drink it directly from the (hair conditioner) bottle.

Now we have to wait for the gelatine Vs nurofen Vs hair-conditior finning comparisions

 

[stillscottish]

I add it along with some Gelatin when I'm racking into the keg. By the time it's gassed up everything has settled. First glass is a bit lumpy but after that it's all good.
YMMV but it works for me.

Campbell

 

[Thirsty Boy]

PVPP is very commonly used in both the brewing and wine industry. In brewing to ensure physical stability from a haze perspective (with a sub benefit of helping to reduce oxidation/aging flavours) - in wine to remove tannins to reduce bitterness and i think lighten colour.

Its added to beer in line after the main filter and filtered out afterwards with a separate filter, then regenerated and re-used. Smaller breweries might only have the facilities for "one time" use. You dont have to install the regeneration plant, but the cost per liter is higher (PVPP is not cheap). Its not generally used on all beers - only those which might be at extra risk of physical instability, or for which you need extra shelf life.

Polyclar removes low molecular weight tannins from solution by adsorbing them onto its surface. Polyclar does not flocculate or cause anything else to flocculate, coagulate or come out of solution. It simply soaks up the tannins and sinks to the bottom under its own weight, or is filtered out. Most homebrewers would be using polyclar VT which is a product meant for the wine industry and is created with a large enough particle size so that the polyclar effectively sinks to the bottom and you can rack off the top of it. Finer particles have a higher surface area and work better/faster with a lower dose, but are fine enough so they dont sink very well and you need to filter them out. Polyclar does not clear yeast or other stuff - that would be gravity. It is wholy and only for the purpose removing the tannins which might otherwise combine with protiens to form haze.

 

[Bribie G]

that might combine with proteins to form chill haze....
Palmer suggests that chill haze is cold break that has made it through to the end of fermentation, pure and simple, and that wort has to be thermally shocked (ie plate chiller etc) otherwise chill haze is unavoidable.

My own hands on experience with cold break is that Palmer is wrong - but then America is the new Roman Empire so anything emanating from leading experts in that country has to carry more weight than the whimperings of mere barbarians inhabiting the outer campfires beyond the magnificent glow of the Capitol.

And I haven't even had a drink yet B)

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Chill haze is essentially cold break - and you are correct, Palmer is wrong on the "shocking" aspect of cold break formation. That argument doesn't even have consistancy of internal logic.

If chill haze is cold break, and cold break only forms when the wort/beer is suddenly chilled, then naturally, chill haze would only occur if your beer was "suddenly" chilled. So you might get a beer that forms chill haze if a warm bottle is put in an eski full of ice and very rapidly made cold - but that same beer would remain haze free if it were put into a normal fridge and cooled down to the same temperature over a period of several hours. This is not what happens.

Chill haze and cold break are simply complexes between tannins and protiens that are soluble at high temperatures and insoluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which the temperature is reached has little or nothing to do with it. (note, i think it can affect the size of the break particles that form, not the amount of break - just the size of particle the break flocculates into)

 

[Dazza88]

First time polyclar use. If I added polyclar dry into my secondary fermenter two days should beer now be haze free? It seems hazey. Teaspoon sprinkled onto top of beer. At two degrees.