Today's brew

[ArgM]

Hey guys,

Decided to brew a Rye Pale Ale BIAB, and thought I'd share my experience from today.

First thing I learnt is remember to take photos!

Second thing was that Rye is incredibly sticky, I had 65% Pale 2 Row, 30% Rye and 5% CaraAroma. Generally I just chuck on gloves and squeeze my bag dry
as a sparge, however, today attempting that did not work in the slightest and found myself racing around trying to sanitize pots to sparge as quickly as possible. This was because I noticed a high presence of Dimethyl-sulphides in the wort during mash (which I thought 2-row was meant to be quite low on?) and wanted to boil out ASAP.
After my impromptu sparge I ended up with 12L of wort (from 16 from the start). This then boiled down to 8l, with Amarillo and Fuggles added at 60, 45. 30. 10, 5 with about 7 grams each time (forgot to ajdust for the missing wort).

So, according to Brewer's Friend I am now on my way to a 9.5% Rye IPA rather than the 6% Rye Pale I was aiming for..

Anyway, I think I learned a lot today with my 4th BIAB, not only about being over organised for the brew itself, but also about different ways of dealing with off flavours, how to attempt a proper sparge and the differences that grains can have to how you should go about the brew!

Also, if there's any tips on how to make sure my beer gets up to the 9% mark it'd be nice to get some tips there, Im using Danstar Belle Saison yeast!

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi ArgM,

First up 30% Rye is a lot and you will notice it along with the higher ABV, I'm more of an ipa than apa brewer these days.

Can't quite help you with the yeast question but I'm interested to know something;

What was the DMS you noticed during the mash???

 

[ArgM]

I could have picked the DMS wrong, it was noticeable about 30 minutes into the mash, soggy cabbage, carrot, almost sweet&off vegetable stock? It wasn't present at all in the aroma just in taste.
Flavor was undetectable post boil, however, the hops could have just been over powering it.

That's good I'll notice the Rye, I'm a big fan of Rye bread (Borodinsky to be exact) and after trying the Mountain Goat Rye IPA I was sold and had to give it a try in my brew!

 

[philmud]

Also, if there's any tips on how to make sure my beer gets up to the 9% mark it'd be nice to get some tips there, Im using Danstar Belle Saison yeast!

Probably your best opportunities to influence this have been and gone. Mashing low and oxygenating your wort are two things that spring to mind. As you're using a saison yeast you can probably ferment a bit warmer than you would if you used a more traditional APA yeast - this will help it ferment out too. What FG is your anticipated 9% based on, and what was your mash temp? Just be aware that if it finishes really low (as most saisons do), your beer will be pretty dry for an APA - not necessarily a bad thing.
Anyway, I wouldn't stress about the Belle, I'd ferment in the low 20s and I reckon it'll eat as much as it can manage - it's a pretty voracious yeast.

 

[ArgM]

Anticipated FG of 1.023, OG was about 1.099.

I mashed at 66 C with 10 mins at 72 C at the end. It's a 30L fermenter and was poured from a height in and shaken a few times, then shaken again this morning when I added the yeast that I had sitting next to a lamp incubating at about 22 C.
It's fermenting in my room and the ambient temp in here seem to only vary my 1-2 degrees a day so will be fermenting at about 18C +/- 2. I'm thinking run this in the primary for an extended period of time (maybe 2-4 weeks?) rather than transfer to secondary to help get some of the lovely yeast flavour in there (the incubated mixture smelt amazing!) and to try and get the most out of the yeast. The other thing I realise I have in my favor is the packet recommends 1g/1L and I have 11g to 8L.

Great, I love that it's on it's way to being a dry beer! The flavour profile I was aiming for is a dry, lots of spice, bit of caramel and some complimenting citrus and floral on the nose, also hopefully some of the fruit that I was smelling in the yeast

So, it sounds like I'm in a good position having already done what you suggest to a certain extent!

 

[philmud]

Someone else might be able to do the maths, but I reckon you're likely to finish a fair way below 1.023 - In my experience with saison yeasts (Belle and 3711), I usually finish south of 1.005, though my wort OG has never been as high as that.

You also might find your hops will overpower the yeast driven flavours but I reckon you'll have an interesting beer in your hands.

Edit: this guy reported a high gravity wort with Belle and ended below 1.010 (at least, FG not reported) - was an extract brew, so no ultra low mash - I'd say you'll end up north of 10% ABV

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/danstar-belle-saison-mid-primary-now-should-i-maintain-elevated-temp-463566/

 

[mje1980]

My Belgian IPA with belle went from 1.070 something to 1.002. 1.099 is quite high but I'm tipping it should hit 1.010 easy

 

[ArgM]

Just plugged it in, if it gets down to 1.002 it'll get up to 12.73%... Seems like the learning curve continues!
What's my risk of getting bad alcohol flavour's at that level? It's probably worth letting them bottle condition for at least 3 months, correct?

Haha, yeah it's definitely should be interesting! I hope it's got a bit of personality, there's a reason I didn't use a recipe

That links pretty interesting, apparently he reached 1.010 in 3 days! crazy..

 

[ArgM]

Was wondering if I could get some trouble shooting tips? I took a sample last night and there seems to be a lot of sediment, I usually use Irish Moss, but I've realised I forgot to add it this time.
I realise it's still early days, but I was wondering if I could get some hints to help improve this? I want to try and avoid a secondary if I can

 

[marksy]

You'll always get sediment when taking samples over fermenting period. A good one is putting it in a fridge for a week, or through a filter while racking, or the use of gelatine. Secondary helps also. End of the day once it's in bottles just leave them in the fridge for a good 48hrs before drinking and leave the last little bit in bottle.

 

[manticle]

I could have picked the DMS wrong, it was noticeable about 30 minutes into the mash, soggy cabbage, carrot, almost sweet&off vegetable stock? It wasn't present at all in the aroma just in taste.
Flavor was undetectable post boil, however, the hops could have just been over powering it.

Sounds like a reasonable description of DMS. When wort is boiling, I preceive it along similar lines to how a chef's blanching pot smells at the end of the night.
What's the alcohol tolerance of Belle saison? Even if its attenuation potential is high (as are all saison yeasts that I know of) it will still have a limit to how well it can perform in an alcoholic environment. If your beer seems to stall, it may simply be that the yeast cannot cope above a certain abv%.

 

[mje1980]

If you keep the fermentation cool in the first 48 hours you'll avoid a lot of hot alcohol/solvent flavours. You'll need to give it at least 6 months too IMHO.

 

[Not For Horses]

I noticed a high presence of Dimethyl-sulphides in the wort during mash (which I thought 2-row was meant to be quite low on?) and wanted to boil out ASAP.

it was noticeable about 30 minutes into the mash, soggy cabbage, carrot, almost sweet&off vegetable stock? It wasn't present at all in the aroma just in taste.
Flavor was undetectable post boil, however, the hops could have just been over powering it.

This actually sums up a common pathway to DMS and it's behaviour in the mash and boil perfectly. You should be happy that you observed such textbook conditions!

Pale malt (which is what I assume you mean by '2-row' rather than pils malt) is actually higher in DMS than pils malts.

DMS is water insoluble and is usually at it's highest concentration in your beer during the mash. This is exactly as you observed.
More often than not, DMS will boil off completely (or at least to undetectable levels) hence why you were unable to detect it post boil.

Next time you brew, put aside a cup or so of runnings from the sparge at various stages and have a taste and smell when it cools down. This will probably be quite disgusting but should give you a pretty good idea of what DMS is really about flavour-wise.

 

[mrsupraboy]

Hey guys,

Second thing was that Rye is incredibly sticky, I had 65% Pale 2 Row, 30% Rye and 5% CaraAroma. Generally I just chuck on gloves and squeeze my bag dry
as a sparge,

Sorry if I'm wrong but I was told not to squeeze the bag dry. As it would release of flavours. That's what I was doin. I was also told just to pour some boiling water over the bag after to collect the rest.

Sorry if I'm of point or didn't understand something correctly.

 

[verysupple]

... found myself racing around trying to sanitize pots to sparge as quickly as possible.

Just curious as to why you felt it necessary to sanitise pots for sparging. You're going to boil the wort afterwards anyway.

Sorry if I'm wrong but I was told not to squeeze the bag dry. As it would release of flavours. That's what I was doin. I was also told just to pour some boiling water over the bag after to collect the rest.

Sorry if I'm of point or didn't understand something correctly.

Bag squeezing is a very contentious issue. Some people are adamant that it will leach tannins and others are adamant that it doesn't and that it's OK to do it. I'm in the "it's OK to squeeze" camp because leaching of tannins is a function of high temperature and high pH. As far as I can tell, when you squeeze a bag of grains you're not raising the temp. pH might change as the liquid drains but when you sqeeze the bag it happens very quickly, unlike in a slow fly sparge when the pH can get high enough for long enough to extract tannins. When you squeeze, even if the pH did get high enough the wort is not in contact with the grains long enough for an appreciable amount of tannin extraction (perhaps none?). Also from an anecdotal point of view, lots of people (including me) squeeze without ill effects.

 

[fletcher]

i squeeze. no flavour issues.

 

[verysupple]

Pale malt (which is what I assume you mean by '2-row' rather than pils malt) is actually higher in DMS than pils malts.

Actually, pale malt is usually darker than Pils malt so it usually shows less DMS problems. Malts that are more lightly kilned (usually lower temps) generally have more S-methyl methionine (SMM) which converts to dimethyl sulphide (DMS) in the presence of heat (i.e. mash and boil).

 

[ArgM]

I wasn't trying to do a full sanitize, just get some stuff clean, which is a bit or a rarity in a share house haha

Pouring hot water over ended up just adding more water to be squeezed out, I'm not kidding by how sticky this was haha

I'm definitely for squeezing, on top of what else has been stated, the way I see it is the grains have already been crushed and with the length of steeping time there could be no extra off flavor that could be produced from squeezing.

Had a taste of this last night (one week from pitching today) and it is super effervescent and has some beautiful flavours coming through (no DMS present which is nice). The yeast is still working away, krausen formed second day and was gone by the 6th, now there's a light layer of bubbles covering, gravity's gotten down too around 1.015 and it seem to be creeping lower and lower, we've had some cold weather here so that seems to have slowed things down a bit. I'm going to leave it untouched of another week then transfer to a secondary to free up the fermenter. Probably leave it in the secondary about a month then bottle and condition until spring and the weather's gets more appropriate.

 

[Not For Horses]

Actually, pale malt is usually darker than Pils malt so it usually shows less DMS problems. Malts that are more lightly kilned (usually lower temps) generally have more S-methyl methionine (SMM) which converts to dimethyl sulphide (DMS) in the presence of heat (i.e. mash and boil).

When talking about the final product there are less DMS problems with ale malt. That is not what I was talking about here.

SMM (as well as other precursors) is also converted during kilning and the amount of conversion is relative to the temperature of the kiln.

Ale malt has more DMS but less SMM.
Pils malt has less DMS but more SMM.

This is why the mash can (and did for the OP) smell and taste of DMS with ale malt. It is already converted in the grain waiting to be released.

The conversion of SMM to DMS is slower at mash temps which is why you may not notice it during the mash of a pils malt but may be evident without sufficient boiling.

 

[ArgM]

Just transferred to secondary, settled at an FG of 1.06 giving it a ABV of 12%! Double what I wanted, not complaining though

Tasted after transferring, no DMS has crept in and it tastes quite alcoholic (similar to a cheap bottle of white wine) but I understand that's what the aging is for to subdue that flavour?

The other thing is it has cleared better than any of my other beers at this stage, which is strange since this was the first time I didn't add Irish moss and a character of this yeast is the effervescent appearance it gives beer which was evident before moving to secondary, have I done something wrong here or is this not a real issue at this stage?

One last piece of advice I'd like to ask for is what precautions should I take bottling to avoid bottle bombs or is there now difference between bottling a 5% and a 12%?