Tips for Lager Brewing

[Rocker1986]

FWIW there are a couple websites out there saying 2042 has a WL equivalent, but when you go to the sites that list yeast sources, none of the supposed equivalents match up, so my guess is no, no equivalent.

My original quote was in reference to 2001 Urquell yeast which is apparently the same strain as WLP800. I've only used 2042 once in a XXXX Bitter rip off in which it performed very well and dropped out like a bloody stone despite it being supposedly a low floccing yeast, but I can't find an equivalent either except one site that listed WLP830 as its equivalent. I found that strange since 830 is called German lager and 2042 Danish.

 

[Meddo]

Yeah I thought you were referring to the 2042, not 2001, hence my question (obviously). Agreed, the only list that I found (which appears to be superseded anyway due to errors) with an equivalent for 2042 had WLP830 as the equivalent for both 2024 and 2124, so something's clearly amiss. The MrMalty list draws a blank in the WL column for 2024.

 

[labels]

2042 is great lager strain, it's main attributes being a fairly neutral flavour profile and a very low level of floculation above 0C. So the strain is good for a wide variety of lager styles in particular modern European (not Bohemian) pilsners and North American lagers. It's also very forgiving in producing really clean lagers through a fairly wide temperature range. The low floculation really helps with lagering/conditioning the beer quickly, a huge bonus here. However do not despair, Wyeast, according to their website have strain 2247. I've never tried this one but I am super keen to give it a go if it subs well for 2042 and according to the stats it looks like it will do very nicely.

 

[Rocker1986]

It looks like on the Wyeast site that any strains with "PC" next to their number aren't available regularly. Apparently 2278, which is also on my to-try list, is also from Pilsner Urquell, the D-strain rather than the H-strain like 2001 is. It doesn't look like going away so I'll try the Budvar yeast first while I still can, and then give the 2278 a go. I mainly brew Bohemian pilsners when I brew lagers so as long as I have one strain that works well in them I'll be happy.

 

[Haciluku]

Plan to brew more lager this year. So I am after several classic grain and hop bills for Bohemian Pils, Munich Helles and German Pils. If anyone can help or please let me know if this is already available somewhere in the forum.

Also, how to get that smooth grainy sweet favour in the pilsner? I have been reading Labels' thread about "Getting Pilsner into Pilsner" but can't seem to find any answer.

 

[labels]

Plan to brew more lager this year. So I am after several classic grain and hop bills for Bohemian Pils, Munich Helles and German Pils. If anyone can help or please let me know if this is already available somewhere in the forum.

Also, how to get that smooth grainy sweet favour in the pilsner? I have been reading Labels' thread about "Getting Pilsner into Pilsner" but can't seem to find any answer.

It's just so easy you are probably reading far more into it than is necessary. Pilsner malt will naturally produce a beer with a sweet pilsner taste - even Joe White. You can use any lager yeast strain you like - any of them it does not matter. Use a mid-range mash temp of 66C but if you do a low one or a high one it doesn't matter. It is really that easy. The part you need to concentrate on is is very tight temperature control during fermentation and conditioning, that is the make or break point.
Pay attention to detail, lagers are no place for slack-arses

 

[Haciluku]

Yes, you are right Labels. There is a lot of info available but not sure what should I use, so better to ask first before I follow blindly.
I will most likely doing a single infusion mash (ok, 66C). Do I need a small percentage of specialty or base malts other than Pilsner malt for different lager style?

Will try your method of fermentation and conditioning.

 

[manticle]

If you do use spec, keep it simple, low and appropriate. 5% or less of caramunich may work well in german style pale lager for example.

 

[Rocker1986]

My Bo Pils grain bills consist of Weyermann Bo pils malt, and a small amount of melanoidin & acidulated malt (about 2% each), with a pinch of black malt to slightly darken it to a more golden color like Urquell is. I boil for 90 minutes, adding Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes and 15 minutes to around 40-45 IBUs. The amounts of the hops vary depending on AA%. I use the same recipe every time and they always turn out well.

 

[Haciluku]

Thanks Rocker. I will give your recipe a go for my next Bo Pils or might do Pils, caramunich III (for colour) & acid malt if I can't find black malt in my grain store. Same hops.
Your hop addition 80 and 15 min, are they based on brewing software or actual (i.e. cube)?

 

[Rocker1986]

Cubing makes stuff all difference to long boil additions like 80 minutes so I don't worry about those early ones in regards to that. It would affect the 15 minute addition more though; personally I don't account for it in my recipes because I've never had a beer turn out with excessive bitterness from late additions, even though it's supposed to increase it. If there is an increase from what the software says then I can't detect it, they always taste nicely balanced to my palate.

 

[Haciluku]

If you have the 15 min addition before cubing, does it affect the favour?

 

[Adr_0]

This information was passed onto me by me LHBS

[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 1st : [/SIZE]

• [SIZE=11.5pt]2000 Budvar Lager[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=11.5pt]2001 Pilsner Urquel H-Strain[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=11.5pt]2035 American Lager[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=11.5pt]3333 German Wheat[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 13th: [/SIZE]

• [SIZE=11.5pt]3942 Belgian Wheat[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=11.5pt]2042 Danish Lager[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 20th: [/SIZE]

• [SIZE=11.5pt]3463 Forbidden Fruit[/SIZE]

Wyeast 2000... NO!!!! Seriously, that's probably my favourite.


I've had some good results setting the temperature (freezer temperature, not in-wort) to 18°C at the 50% attenuation mark and holding it there till it's basically at FG. Then into a new fermenter and down to -1 to 0°C. Assuming the first 50% attenuation has been at 11-12°C.

The biggest dramas for me with lagers are:
- The time/effort to build up big starters. I have 2 x 3L erlenmeyers to do this, but it still takes over a week really.
- The bottle conditioning time. Lagering is fine, not really massively longer than some ales - but it takes a solid 4-6 weeks to get carbonation coming through.

I should prime, then let it sit for a day before bottling. That might be too much... maybe try 8-12hrs. This works well with ales - giving it 3-6hrs to get fermentation off quickly - and I'm sure it would work for lagers.

 

[labels]

Yes, I allow a week for starters usually making them the weekend before I brew. With your long bottling time it probably has to do with not enough viable yeast. If you save some yeast from your starter and re-seed at bottling time you will probably have more luck

 

[Rocker1986]

If you have the 15 min addition before cubing, does it affect the favour?

That's a good question. It wouldn't present like a 15 minute addition would when the wort is chilled straight after the boil, no doubt about that. That's why I'm experimenting with the flameout addition tomorrow. I still get plenty of Saaz flavour though, just want to see if the flameout addition increases that a bit more without being grassy.

 

[Haciluku]

That's a good question. It wouldn't present like a 15 minute addition would when the wort is chilled straight after the boil, no doubt about that. That's why I'm experimenting with the flameout addition tomorrow.

Cool, please let me know the result when you tasted it.

 

[Rocker1986]

Will do mate, it will be pitched on Tuesday and kegged 4 weeks later but not on tap straight away so probably be a couple of months away yet.

 

[Rocker1986]

Cool, please let me know the result when you tasted it.

I've taken the final FG sample from this batch just now and had a small taste. If there are grassy flavours in it then I can't taste them. It just tastes like all my previous ones but with an extra kick of Saaz flavour, which I was hoping for. It will now be cold conditioned for two weeks before being kegged so I expect it will improve more. I'll make a final judgement on this flameout addition once the beer is carbonated and on tap but at this point it looks like it will remain part of the recipe.

 

[Haciluku]

Good to hear that.
I took a punt last weekend, did a cube hopping with Saaz and Motueka (total 40g) on Boh Pils in 23L batch. It is fermenting now.

 

[klangers]

I can also vouch for the warm pitch method. I prefer to pitch the yeast straight after chilling rather than muck around waiting. If your fridge is grunty enough it'll pull down the temperature in time for the ramp up of fermentation. White Labs actually recommend "warm pitching". 20 degrees C or so. Keeping the wort away from yeast leaves it highly vulnerable to oxidation.

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about with lagers. Aside from recipe variations (I consider a recipe to also cover ferment temps, yeast cell counts etc), there is absolutely no difference in the hot side process. The only difference is in the cold side - and I debate if this is really a difference at home brew levels - is that lagers need to be kept on the yeast for an extended time. If you make good "normal" beer, then there is absolutely no reason why you can't make a good lager. Just a different recipe with different process parameters.

Lager actually means "to store/keep" in German. This specifically refers to keeping the beer on the yeast for an extended period of time.