The Filter Stole My Flavour

[buttersd70]

I am in R&D in the food industry and have a pretty good palate so perhaps i am being a little critical.

Or maybe your palate isn't as good as you'd like to think it is?
If removal of the suspended yeast is compromising flavour, than it strikes me that you are relying way too much on the suspended yeast to give your beer flavour. Yeast should (in most cases) give a layer of flavour, not predominate.
Let me guess, this is not AG we're talking about, is it?

 

[FireBlade]

At a recent brewing demo at Grain and Grape, filtering came up a couple of times and the fella doing the demo reckons he was surprised just how much flavour and aroma went missing from the filtered beer.

 

[gibbocore]

Few things,

I filter with a 1 micron
I will always filter with a 1 micron
If anything it helps my beer mellow faster


Might i suggest a brewing problem might be whats resulting in your beer lacking flavour, and as its already said, you are removing the yeast, which will add a lot of 'flavour' to your beer, perhaps, and i mean no offence, that when the yeast is removed, you are not leaving the beer with much. Perhaps post up a few of the recipe's and tech used to brew the lacking beers.

 

[big_alk]

Rubbish. Pure rubbish.
1 micron is not even considered fine. Its medium fine. If one micron lets through enough yeast to bottle condition (which it does) it's hardly sterile.

I have filetered both to keg, and to bottle with 1 micron. No body loss, no head retention issues, no flavour loss, no colour loss. No way, no how. Although my filtered beer does'nt have the best head out. 2 fingers of head will rapidly drop down to 1 finger of solid head in the course of 10 minutes or so. Does this count?

you and I must be talking about different filters and a different filtering method, thats why I asked.
1um is used in the brewing and wine industry for sterile filtration prior to bottling
check out "http://www.pall.com/pdf/PFB_P148_Kseries.pdf" for EKS80 if you're not convinced
standard aperture size for "coarse" filtration for beers served on tap is 5um, such as the K200 sheets that I use.

I never said 1um would let through yeast, quite the opposite in fact!

 

[big_alk]

you and I must be talking about different filters and a different filtering method, thats why I asked.
1um is used in the brewing and wine industry for sterile filtration prior to bottling
check out "http://www.pall.com/pdf/PFB_P148_Kseries.pdf" for EKS80 if you're not convinced
standard aperture size for "coarse" filtration for beers served on tap is 5um, such as the K200 sheets that I use.

I never said 1um would let through yeast, quite the opposite in fact!

also from wikpedia

"Sheet (pad) filters
Sheet filters use pre-made media and are relatively straightforward. The sheets are manufactured to allow only particles smaller than a given size through, and the brewer is free to choose how finely to filter the beer. The sheets are placed into the filtering frame, sterilized (with hot water, for example) and then used to filter the beer. The sheets can be flushed if the filter becomes blocked, and usually the sheets are disposable and are replaced between filtration sessions. Often the sheets contain powdered filtration media to aid in filtration.

Pre-made filters have two sides: one with loose holes, and the other with tight holes. Flow goes from the side with loose holes to the side with the tight holes, with the intent that large particles get stuck in the large holes while leaving enough room around the particles and filter medium for smaller particles to go through and get stuck in tighter holes.

Sheets are sold in nominal ratings, and typically 90% of particles larger than the nominal rating are caught by the sheet. For sterile filtration, a typical size is 1 micrometre."

 

[QldKev]

Sorry, maybe I am missing something. You are comparing a naturally bottle conditioned beer (ie sugar for co2) against a keg. I think the bottle will always give more flavour. I am a kegger, cause it easy, but still love a decent bottled beer. I wonder if the real problem is bottle Vs keg; and not the filtering?

QldKev

 

[buttersd70]

Ah, wikepedia. The worlds greatest resource.
Yes we are talking of 2 completely different types of filtration. The types of filter you use are depth filters with perlite etc. The filters under discussion here are cartidge membrane filters. And sources other than the mighty wikipedia (one such example being www.beverageprocess.com) state that fine filtering is achieved at 0.45 micron using a cartridge membrane system.

 

[buttersd70]

Sorry, maybe I am missing something. You are comparing a naturally bottle conditioned beer (ie sugar for co2) against a keg. I think the bottle will always give more flavour. I am a kegger, cause it easy, but still love a decent bottled beer. I wonder if the real problem is bottle Vs keg; and not the filtering?

QldKev

If the keg is force carbonated, this is true. However, if it is naturally primed, the keg will still age, albeit at a different rate to a bottle, but it will be more comparable to the bottled beer than a force carbonated one.

 

[big_alk]

Ah, wikepedia. The worlds greatest resource.
Yes we are talking of 2 completely different types of filtration. The types of filter you use are depth filters with perlite etc. The filters under discussion here are cartidge membrane filters. And sources other than the mighty wikipedia (one such example being www.beverageprocess.com) state that fine filtering is achieved at 0.45 micron using a cartridge membrane system.

actually I use a plate and frame system, which use cellulose filter sheets (as stated in the original post) no sign of any perlite, DE or any oher filter aid.
if you actually read the wikpedia article, you will see it is written by Garret Oliver, (heard of him?)

 

[buttersd70]

to be honest, I couldn't give a **** who wrote it. (and yes I have heard of him.)

Seems like you just want to be a supercillious prick wanting to stoke an argument. Particularly given that the product pdf you posted makes no mention of your particular arrangement not using perlite.

I've made my views known. End of argument.

 

[David Sinclair]

I tend to get a lot of co2 bubbles entering my keg when i filter. I filtered through a 1micron then through a 5micron carbon and i don't think i'll use the carbon filter again, seemed to take away some flavour. My biggest promblem is purging the co2 bubbles but i've got some ideas to combat that.

Till the next brew.

 

[Guest Lurker]

actually I use a plate and frame system, which use cellulose filter sheets (as stated in the original post) no sign of any perlite, DE or any oher filter aid.
if you actually read the wikpedia article, you will see it is written by Garret Oliver, (heard of him?)

Hey Al

Don't take it personally, you are not the first professional brewer to be educated by Butters. Why just the other day he taught Thomas how to rehydrate yeast.

 

[oldbugman]

I tend to get a lot of co2 bubbles entering my keg when i filter. I filtered through a 1micron then through a 5micron carbon and i don't think i'll use the carbon filter again, seemed to take away some flavour. My biggest promblem is purging the co2 bubbles but i've got some ideas to combat that.

Till the next brew.

Dont carbonate your beer prior to filtering.

Let it fully ferment out prior to chilling.

and filter slower.

They are my tips.


I've actually stopped crashed chilling, I find if I let it ferment out and floculate enough so it isnt cloudy then filtering

 

[big_alk]

Ah, wikepedia. The worlds greatest resource.
Yes we are talking of 2 completely different types of filtration. The types of filter you use are depth filters with perlite etc. The filters under discussion here are cartidge membrane filters. And sources other than the mighty wikipedia (one such example being www.beverageprocess.com) state that fine filtering is achieved at 0.45 micron using a cartridge membrane system.

the website you quote above actually describes a two-stage sterile filtration prior to bottling. (not bottle conditioning)

 

[edoeven]

I think its reasonably solid science that the overwhelming majority of 'flavour' compounds in a beer are much smaller than 1 micron, the filter shouldnt make any difference. If the percieved or desired flavour is from yeast, then yes, it will make a large difference. Likewise if you are getting oxidation problems, or something not clean along the way, both could alter the flavour. I filter most of my beers, and always purge the system and recieving keg with CO2 and properly sanitise everything before running any beer through the system, havent run into any problems. Usefull if you want a nice bright beer quickly, or going to transport to a party or something like that etc...

 

[matti]

I like filtered beer and non filtered beer.
OK, I like beer.

Bottled conditioned beer taste as good as filtered and kegged beer to me.
Though filtering take only part of the yeast out, it will taste slightly different.
then if you go and pasteurise it, you are going to have a different beer again.
If you leave the beer for 3 months before you drink it'll taste better again....

I have no doubt your palate is correct in detecting flavour but there are only few yeasts like to drink.
Cooper Pale ale is booring but i'll drink lack of any thing else.
Koslch I may have few of but then my pocket be emty

My tip is
Application
Patience
Appreciation

NOOOOO did that spell APA

matti
thy QA

 

[gap]

to be honest, I couldn't give a **** who wrote it. (and yes I have heard of him.)

Seems like you just want to be a supercillious prick wanting to stoke an argument. Particularly given that the product pdf you posted makes no mention of your particular arrangement not using perlite.

I've made my views known. End of argument.

I find this offensive . Who nominated you as the supreme expert on every subject on this forum.

There is no need to use this attitude to other members.

 

[buttersd70]

I find this offensive . Who nominated you as the supreme expert on every subject on this forum.

There is no need to use this attitude to other members.

And you are entitled to that opinion. As I am entitled to take offence at the attitude I percieve to be directed at me from big_alk, which prompted my comment in the first place.

 

[big_alk]

And you are entitled to that opinion. As I am entitled to take offence at the attitude I percieve to be directed at me from big_alk, which prompted my comment in the first place.

Rubbish. Pure rubbish.

 

[dr K]

No doubt about it, filtering does strip flavour.
It certainly strips a component of hop flavour, but it also strips a lot of other flavours that would be best not in the beer. Flavour wise filterings wins and if the hop side is down balance with more hop, this is surely what brewing is about.
At this present time I choose not to filter, but that is my choice..
If you want a well presented beer without a lot of touble then filter, if you feel that filtering strips some hop character then boost your hops to balance, if you feel it strips some malt ..well I guess it is again up to hop balance.
Goodness..its only beer
K