The difference between candi sugar and candi sugar

[LRAT]

Another problem arose whilst doing my research to replicate a Westmalle Tripel beer.
This time it's about the added sugar and then more specific candi (Or is it candy) sugar.
To achieve an ABV of 9.6% the monks add candi sugar to the brew up to 20% of the total amount of the fermentables.
Over the last week I've been watching numerous YouTube clips and there seems to be two different approaches to make the candi sugar at home.
The majority of brewers seem to dissolve white cane sugar in water, add some lemon juice or any other acid and then boil it at 135C for 20 minutes.
They then raise the temperature to 148 degrees and pour it in a pot to cool.
The experts reckon this is all wrong and instead of an acid you should use an alkaline substance such as lye (NaOH). One should also ad some Dry Malt Extract (DME) to introduce proteins in the sugar. This will trigger a Maillard-reaction.
The best YouTube clip I found is this link:
However, his end product is way too dark for what I want to achieve. I am after a clear candi sugar with no caramelisation to it.
In Stan Hyronymous' book: Brew like a monk, he states that the confusion is caused by the American brewers as they use different terminology.
Now, I want to make 2kg of clear candi sugar (No colour to it) that is required for my recipe to make Westmalle Tripel.
What do you suggest? How do you make your candi sugar?
I appreciate your help and suggestions. Thanks.

 

[danspam]

AFAIK Candi sugar colour is a result of how long much you caramelise the sugar. I have used the following process to create it. Not step 4 talks about cooking it until you get the colour you want: How to make Belgian Candi Sugar

 

[LRAT]

AFAIK Candi sugar colour is a result of how long much you caramelise the sugar. I have used the following process to create it. Not step 4 talks about cooking it until you get the colour you want: How to make Belgian Candi Sugar

Hi Danspam,
Thanks for the link. However, it was only yesterday that I followed this recipe to the letter!
Unfortunately the endresult wasn't what I expected. The candi sugar was way too dark. It seems that the recommended temperature of 135C is way too high.
The recipe also calls to add lemon juice and according to the other experts this might be great for making candi sweets but is not good for brewing. Hence my confusion.
It also made a very sticky mess when I poured it on baking paper. The paper became permanently attached to the sugar and it's impossible to peel it off. Now, even after 16 hours of cooling the sugar feels hard but is still viscous.

 

[MHB]

This is a well flogged horse, people have been talking about about it for years, a bit of a search will find heaps on AHB, but here are my thoughts on the subject (not got a lot of time right now so will be succinct - not to be mistaken for rude)

Belgian Candi is made from Beet Sugar, if you cant get beet sugar you can't fake Belgian Candi!

Beet sugar is apparently the same as Cane Sugar when you test it in a lab. That said, you can't make rum out of fermented Beet Sugar, you can (and do) make it from Cane Sugar. So there is some difference that labs cant detect, but your palate can (yes they do taste slightly different).

You can make Invert Sugar (Candy Sugar) at home (from either Beet or Cane Sugar), there are lots of ways, both acid and base will get you there as will adding Invertase (the enzyme from yeast that it uses to invert Sucrose sugar in the ferment), this is probably the best way if you want Clear Candy.

As noted, if you add protein or use too much heat you will get darkening, with protein (and heat) you get Maillard products, with just sugar you get Caramelisation. The two are not in any way the same and both smell and taste different.

The only reason Belgian brewers add "Sugars" to the kettle is because its the only place they are allowed to add sugars under Belgian tax law, which does not apply here. If you are just adding white sugar to say a triple you will be way better off adding it later in the ferment or even adding it in several portions during the ferment.
This reduces osmotic pressure on the yeast (lowers the OG) which means a better and cleaner ferment, especially if your yeast pitch is on the light side, which is mostly the case for home brewers (go do the calculations).

Yeast is more than capable of inverting sucrose on its own, the main reasons for it being inverted for industrial applications is that it stays liquid so it can be carried in tankers and pumped.
There is another reason to not add sugar to the kettle or at the start of the ferment. When yeast is exposed to a lot of sucrose (or Glucose/Fructose) it can get lazy, well, it shuts down the yeast's ability to metabolise more complex sugars, this can often lead to under attenuation. Not as much with true Belgian strains that are well trained on sucrose but enough to leave many home brewed triples over sweet.

If you are adding white sugar, look at the amount of extract supplied by the sugar, wait until the gravity has fallen by at least that much then add you sugar (a 1:1 solution in boiling water is fine) in one or several steps.

Smart money is to let the yeast do the inverting in its own time in the ferment and you will make a better Triple.

NB:
There is a very slight difference between the taste of Belgian Candi and White Sugar (whether inverted or not) but it is very subtle. If I thought my Triple was heading to the nationals, I would find some clear Candi, if I was making it to drink (or sell) I would use white sugar from Woollies dissolved in some hot water.

Mark

 

[scomet]

Hello LRAT, I have carefully read your post and watched the video and I think you are confusing two processes here. You mention the word 'Maillard' reaction and Candy sugar with regard to inverted sugar? These are two seperate processes which produce two VERY different sugars for brewing purposes. By definition 'Candy' sugar is manufactured by the caramelisation process and brewers invert (BI) is made utilising the Maillard reaction these give two very different tasting sugars and subsequently flavour to your beers. They also 'can' produce very different colours, BI can be clear to dark and candy sugar is generally dark due to its process. In saying this most commercial BI and candy sugar is manufactured by chemical process these days I believe.

So where does this leave us with regard to your query? You want a CLEAR inverted sugar for your brewing. Fructose starts to caramelise over 115C so once you start the inversion you need to stay below this temp, this product will darken with time due to the Maillard reaction but it is a long process, 3 to 4 hours. I wouldn't use sodium hydroxide in my process I use lactic acid, my BI recipe follows :-

For 1kg of 'Raw Sugar’ add 1 litre of water + 5ml of lactic acid, heat to 110c for 1 hour and trust the science…. this will yield a very light BI, I cant describe the flavour its not sweet, its definitely not toffee. I use 500g (equivalent) per 25l of my best bitter, loose the apple 'home brew' flavour :-}

There are thousands of references to this subject both scientific / commercial, internet opinion etc, a lot conflicting info. this is what I have distilled and it works for me….. Cheers

 

[LRAT]

This is a well flogged horse, people have been talking about about it for years, a bit of a search will find heaps on AHB, but here are my thoughts on the subject (not got a lot of time right now so will be succinct - not to be mistaken for rude)

Belgian Candi is made from Beet Sugar, if you cant get beet sugar you can't fake Belgian Candi!

Beet sugar is apparently the same as Cane Sugar when you test it in a lab. That said, you can't make rum out of fermented Beet Sugar, you can (and do) make it from Cane Sugar. So there is some difference that labs cant detect, but your palate can (yes they do taste slightly different).

You can make Invert Sugar (Candy Sugar) at home (from either Beet or Cane Sugar), there are lots of ways, both acid and base will get you there as will adding Invertase (the enzyme from yeast that it uses to invert Sucrose sugar in the ferment), this is probably the best way if you want Clear Candy.

As noted, if you add protein or use too much heat you will get darkening, with protein (and heat) you get Maillard products, with just sugar you get Caramelisation. The two are not in any way the same and both smell and taste different.

The only reason Belgian brewers add "Sugars" to the kettle is because its the only place they are allowed to add sugars under Belgian tax law, which does not apply here. If you are just adding white sugar to say a triple you will be way better off adding it later in the ferment or even adding it in several portions during the ferment.
This reduces osmotic pressure on the yeast (lowers the OG) which means a better and cleaner ferment, especially if your yeast pitch is on the light side, which is mostly the case for home brewers (go do the calculations).

Yeast is more than capable of inverting sucrose on its own, the main reasons for it being inverted for industrial applications is that it stays liquid so it can be carried in tankers and pumped.
There is another reason to not add sugar to the kettle or at the start of the ferment. When yeast is exposed to a lot of sucrose (or Glucose/Fructose) it can get lazy, well, it shuts down the yeast's ability to metabolise more complex sugars, this can often lead to under attenuation. Not as much with true Belgian strains that are well trained on sucrose but enough to leave many home brewed triples over sweet.

If you are adding white sugar, look at the amount of extract supplied by the sugar, wait until the gravity has fallen by at least that much then add you sugar (a 1:1 solution in boiling water is fine) in one or several steps.

Smart money is to let the yeast do the inverting in its own time in the ferment and you will make a better Triple.

NB:
There is a very slight difference between the taste of Belgian Candi and White Sugar (whether inverted or not) but it is very subtle. If I thought my Triple was heading to the nationals, I would find some clear Candi, if I was making it to drink (or sell) I would use white sugar from Woollies dissolved in some hot water.

Mark

Hi Mark. Great response to my question.
I know that Belgian sugar is made sugar beets and not from cane. Most websites say that it doesn't make a difference as both are basically sucrose which has to be split in fructose and glucose before adding to a brew.
I grew up in Belgium and I'm all too familiar with the local sugar, candi sugars, etc. Hence why I want to replicate a Westmalle Tripel as that was my favourite brew. You can buy it up here in the Belgian Cafe @ Southbank, Melbourne but at a cost of $22.00 for a glass of 330cc!!! That is $70 per litre!

Still, my question still stands: How to make candi sugar at home that comes close to the sugar they add in the Westmalle brewery?
Which is the nest method: The use of an acid or an alkaline substance? What's the ideal temperature settings to make a clear candi sugar? Do I make it by adding DME or without? If yes, what sort of malt extract to use and how much? Lastly, do I have to bring it to a cracking temperature of 150C before pouring in a pan?

Initially I thought it would be straight forward, until I was made aware of the difference between candi sugar for sweets and candi sugar for brewing. I've got about 12 books about beer brewing and none explains how to make the stuff at home. One can buy at the shops but it is very expensive ($19.90 for 500g) and it still doesn't tell you whether this is the correct ingredient for brewing or not.

I'm sure there might be many others interested in this. Yes, I have searched the forum in depth but could not find clear guidelines or a recipe.
I truly appreciate your time responding to my request. And no, you didn't come across as rude. Just plain facts and straight to the point (And that's how I like it :=-)).
Thanks for your help!

 

[LRAT]

Hello LRAT, I have carefully read your post and watched the video and I think you are confusing two processes here. You mention the word 'Maillard' reaction and Candy sugar with regard to inverted sugar? These are two seperate processes which produce two VERY different sugars for brewing purposes. By definition 'Candy' sugar is manufactured by the caramelisation process and brewers invert (BI) is made utilising the Maillard reaction these give two very different tasting sugars and subsequently flavour to your beers. They also 'can' produce very different colours, BI can be clear to dark and candy sugar is generally dark due to its process. In saying this most commercial BI and candy sugar is manufactured by chemical process these days I believe.

So where does this leave us with regard to your query? You want a CLEAR inverted sugar for your brewing. Fructose starts to caramelise over 115C so once you start the inversion you need to stay below this temp, this product will darken with time due to the Maillard reaction but it is a long process, 3 to 4 hours. I wouldn't use sodium hydroxide in my process I use lactic acid, my BI recipe follows :-

For 1kg of 'Raw Sugar’ add 1 litre of water + 5ml of lactic acid, heat to 110c for 1 hour and trust the science…. this will yield a very light BI, I cant describe the flavour its not sweet, its definitely not toffee. I use 500g (equivalent) per 25l of my best bitter, loose the apple 'home brew' flavour :-}

There are thousands of references to this subject both scientific / commercial, internet opinion etc, a lot conflicting info. this is what I have distilled and it works for me….. Cheers

Hi Scomet. You nailed the answer!
Yes, I was confused by all the conflicting information I found on the internet.
The internet is great to find information but it can also be very confusing.
Agreed, I found the temperature of 135C way too high and noticed within minutes that the sugar was getting darker and darker. My temperature control was spot on but it ended way too dark to what I wanted.
I will follow your recipe to the letter and will let you know the results. But this won't happen today as I still need to order the lactic acid first.
Thanks mate for sharing your experience!

 

[MHB]

Lrat, I believe you can't fake it, nor make it without Beet Sugar. If you are going to use white Cane Sugar, don't bother inverting, just use it as above.
You can get Clear Candi Syrup I think several HBS in Australia stock it under I believe the Candi Syrup Inc "Clarity" branding, but feck it's dear. I would just go with table sugar, this is not the answer I would give if we were talking about coloured Candi sugars - totally different and I do spend the money.

Check out a mate of mine's store, last time I was in there he had a couple of Westmalle 750mL bottles in the fridge, maybe just for his own drinking pleasure, worth asking him. Triple Karmeliet is the other contender for best Triple, close battle though. Jason ships all his beer from Belgian cold so its in pristine condition

Mark

 

[LRAT]

Lrat, I believe you cant fake it, nor make it without Beet Sugar. If you are going to use white Cane Sugar, don't bother inverting, just use it as above.
You can get Clear Candi Syrup I think several HBS in Australia stock it under I believe the Candi Syrup Inc "Clarity" branding, but feck it dear. I would just go with table sugar, this is not the answer I would give if we were talking about coloured Candi sugars - totally different and I do spend the money.

Check out a mate of mine's store, last time I was in there he had a couple of Westmalle 750mL bottles in the fridge, maybe just for his own drinking pleasure, worth asking him. Triple Karmeliet is the other contender for best Triple, close battle but. Jason ships all his beer from Belgian cold so its in pristine condition

Mark

Thanks Mark
If my Westmalle recipe doesn't succeed I will get in touch with your mate.
I'm just craving for the real stuff as nothing comes close of what's available on the Australian market. No offence intended, just an observation.
Cheers!

 

[MHB]

Believe me, I agree.
Jason (IBC) brought a couple of kegs of Karmeliet over a few years ago, on tap was so good it put me off the bottled version for a while.
Shipping cold makes a huge difference, having good contacts and finding interesting beers helps to.
Frankly, Belgians occupy most of the places on my lifetime top 10 beers list (that's a fairly fluid list - changes at random).
Free Tip:
Use a ridiculous amount of yeast, really build up a huge slab by brewing a couple of pale ales (the one from Westvleteren is on that top 10 list), then brew your Triple on the yeast cake, start cool and let it run up a bit later in the ferment, haven't found any other way to get the crispness with the lovely fruity elegant finish that so typifies the better triples.
Mark