Temp Control Choices...

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gibbocore

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I'm tossing up between the mashmaster set point controller or a PID for the herms system, i'll defs go with set point control for my HLT but for the herms unit i'm wondering if i just play round with a set point i can wok out the relationship between my coil and MT i should be able to get some decent efficacy from a set point controller and avoid the extra stuffing around of a PID.

feel free to shoot me down.

Thoughts?
 
I dunno what you mean. A PID, or PID controller as it is more accurately termed, is just one of many different types of set-point controller. What's the other type you're talking about? on-off control (like a simple thermostat)?
 
one of these
n2006p-00.gif


or

MM-temp-contoller.jpg
 
I see. Well, the first photo you've got there is of a self-tuning PID controller, the second is of a mashmate which is an on-off controller. An on-off controller is pretty straightforward - the element is on when the temperature is below the setpoint, of when it's above. A PID controller, along with most other types of controller besides on-off, adjusts the duty cycle of the heating element - turns it on for a few cycles, off for a few - so that the heat put out by the element can be varied. The PID controller specifically has its output power determined by a combination of the size of the error (the difference between the setpoint and the current temp), the derivitive (the speed that it's changing) and the integral of the error (the sum of all previous sampled errors over time). This allows for finer control over the temperature, and can, in well tuned systems, result in fast rise time (initial heating when you turn it on or change the temp), low or even zero overshoot, fast settling time (how long it takes to stop over and undershooting), and better steady state stability and accuracy (once it's reached the setpoint, it stays there). There are some caveats though. On-off control works reasonably well, with the main limitation being how long it takes the heat you put in to affect the temperature read by the sensor. PID control needs to be tuned, and expects the system it's controlling to be linear and time invariant (this means that you've always got the same amount of water in it, the ambient temperature is the same, air movements etc all remain reasonably constant). Such a controller will perform very differently with a small batch as compared to a large one. There are smarter control systems that can deal with this sort of thing on the fly, but they're much harder to come by, because they're more difficult to understand and design.

All of that aside, a PID controller will still likely perform better, once tuned for an average water volume, than an on-off controller. That isn't to say that the on-off controller won't be satisfactory, and since they're cheaper, it might be hard to argue with on-off control. There is another important consideration though - for a HERMS system, I understand that you've got a pump recirculating the wort through a copper coil submerged in the HLT, which is full of water at some higher temperature, and the pump is either shut off, or has its flow diverted with a solenoid valve, so that the recirculated wort doesn't flow through the HLT coil, correct? In this case, it has to be on-off control (for the pump and/or the solendoid), unless you have some means of varying the flow in small steps, like zizzle's wiper-motor-ball-valve contraption, or an expensive flow control valve, or a pump that is happy with a variable duty cycle. Even then, you would need a complex, double input, dual loop system model to account for the fact that you've got a variable HLT temp and a variable flow rate. The maths gets pretty ugly.

If it were me, I'd go for a PID controller on the HLT's element, and a mashmate on-off controller for the HERMS recirc pump/valve. If it's a RIMS, not a HERMS, a PID loop on the RIMS element wouldn't go astray but again, expect variable performance with variable system conditions.
 
Cheers for that dude.

I had intended on having constant re-circ without the solenoid valve switching, there will be a bypass though for the HLT water additions for mash out and batch sparging but during the mash cycle i was going to just havea constant flow through the coil and let the temp controler throttle the temp with my probe in the MLT outlet. I'm fairly aware of the temp overshoot i'm going to have to battle here but its how i'd prefer to tune the system.
 
If you want to do it that way, you'd be much better off with a RIMS. It's a much too complicated system model to control the temp of the HLT water and have that change the mash temp - performance will be terrible. The simplest option will be a fixed temp in the HLT, using a PID controller, ideally set at your mash-out temp. Then use on/off control (like the mashmate) with temp probe in the tun, and either switching the pump on and off, or switching a solenoid for flow diversion.
 
i'm thinking now that i'll go with solenoid switching to bypass the herms and maintain circulation throughout the mash cycle.

i have started to build my brewery already and pretty much have an empty shell atm, two keggles (MLT& Kettle) a 40L pot for HLT and a 20L pot for the herms coil, i want to finalise my plumbing circuit so i can go buy the bits.

So from what i understand, i'll have my probe in the MLT or MLT outlet (preferably) start the pump for recirc and set the Mashmaster controller for mash temp, when temp drops a degree below the set point solenoid valves will open/close allowing circulation through the HERMS then when temp is achieved the solenoids swtch back to bypass. The only thing i cant work out is what will the element be doing in the HERMS vessel while it is recirculating?
 
Why are you using a separate vessel for the HERMS? It's just a waste in terms of water and plumbing. If you use your HLT, you can just have it set at your mashout temp, and when it comes time to sparge you utilise the water you've been using for the HERMS. I know you can get faster steps if you were to use a separate vessel and keep it closer to boiling, but otherwise I can't see any real advantages.
 
HHmmmm that was my origional plan. Then i was advised against it, and it seemed the norm when observing other peoples systems.

I guess the clincher was faster steps.

geez now i'm confused
 
The steps aren't that much faster, and a higher differential temperature reduces your steady state stability (temp oscillates more at the setpoint). Stick with the HLT and use the 20L pot for big ******* laksas and mussel dishes.
 
well it looks like i'm back to the drawing board.....

BTW, are solenoid valves hard to come by?

Cheers again for helping out!
 
Yeah, but they're not cheap. Again, if it were me, I'd just put the on-off controller on the pump - you won't get that big an advantage from constant recirc, and in terms of wort sitting in the coil getting hot, well, that's going to happen whichever method you use. Solenoids are expensive, though if you're mechanically and electrically handy you could rig up something like zizzle's motors attached to standard, cheap ball valves. Servos or stepper motors would be ideal if you know how to drive them, as they are made for driving to fixed positions.
 
Why are you using a separate vessel for the HERMS? It's just a waste in terms of water and plumbing. If you use your HLT, you can just have it set at your mashout temp, and when it comes time to sparge you utilise the water you've been using for the HERMS. I know you can get faster steps if you were to use a separate vessel and keep it closer to boiling, but otherwise I can't see any real advantages.


Is your system HERMS or RIMS LC ?

Screwy
 
Hey guys, before i make any drastic changes to the origional plan i had, i might do an MSpaint sketch of my plan and plumbing layout and see peoples thoughts on weather it would actually work or not.
 
Hey guys, before i make any drastic changes to the origional plan i had, i might do an MSpaint sketch of my plan and plumbing layout and see peoples thoughts on weather it would actually work or not.

Good idea Gibbo, there are quite a few HERMS brewers who could kick in ideas.

Screwy
 
here tis

herms.jpg


There's a fair few valves i know but the flow is actually pretty easy (for me) to understand.

bare i nmind also that hose distance and valve distance is not to scale.
 
here tis

herms.jpg


There's a fair few valves i know but the flow is actually pretty easy (for me) to understand.

bare i nmind also that hose distance and valve distance is not to scale.


It's one of those Zackary systems Gibbo :lol: Zacary the same as mine, works well. You need to take into account the temp that your wort will reach in the system while circulating. There are times when you need to throttle back the outlet from the pump to slow the flow when recirculating (during rests and after mash out to clear the wort) so as not to pack down the grainbed. Much more important a lower rest temps, as once at mash out the mash loosens up considerably, but when starchy at lower temps it packs down. Opening up the valve fully gives the fastest ramp time, is it possible to achieve valve adjustment using solenoids?

Cheers,

Screwy
 
Ive been running a HERMS for a few years now, and have made a few changes over time to optinise it.

Im a Control Systems Engineer for fun on weekdays and live with PLC's, SCADA and PID control. But on my brew rig i went with nice simple on/off control. And wont change it either!

I have $800 Eurothern PID controllers sitting in boxes in my gagage but use cheap on/off control for everything. I do this because its simple and accurate enough for home brewing! I have said this before and will say it again. PID is not needed for your average home brewing setup. Some complex systems may need it but 99% will get buy just fine with on/off control.

The more critical factor is your control point. Where are you going to get your readings from and what temperature 's are you going to control?

I have 2 temperature controlers but i only use one these days....... the HLT one. simple setup, temp probe in HLT, HWS element and an Omron on/off controller running the show. It over and under shoots by a degree either way but the temp of the outlef of the HErns only changes by 0.2 deg either way during recirculation.

Anyone who tells you 0.2 deg in mash "recirc" temp will cause problems needs shooting!

Here is what i do and it works very well. Screwey has changed his system to be similar as far as i know and now gets predictable results as far as i know.

I work on averages! To get a given finnish to a beer i know what average temp i need in my mash for the wanted result.

I have a 50 liter insulated keg as a mash tun. I use a march pump to recirc and regulate flow with a ball valve on the pump outlet. I like to recirc slow to stop the mash bed compacting. With different malts ect this can mean a different rate of flow for any different brew. I origionally had solenoilds set up to switch my recirc through the herms from recirc to bypass depending on the temp of the wort exiting the mash but i found this a poor control point because by the time the exit mash liquor heated up to the setpoint by a fixed HLT temp the top of the mash was over heated.

So i changed my control point to the return liquor point. I still monitor the exit point. I now mash in at temp wanted and let settle for 10 min. I then start the pump and adjust the required flow with the pump outlet valve.

lets say i want to mash at 66 deg. In my system i will usually get a 1 or 2 deg drop in temp out the botom of the mash before it goes through the HERMS coil.... say 64 deg I then raise the HLT temp so that my return is at 68 deg.

Average through the mash is 66 as shown by a dial therm i have in the center of the mash.

If im mashing cooler at 64 deg its 62 out and 66 return.

works a bloody treat!

a deg or 2 makes bugger all dfference in the mash. The recirc process moves the wort through the mash and effectivly stires it without disturbing the grain bed, you get clear wort to the kettle and can simple control the beers outcome.

you dont need to control the worts temp to within 0.1 deg, as long as it stays within a few deg either side while recircing it will work out perfect

I say start simple and ifyour not happy, go to PID and all the complication it presents. Tuning, hunting ect if not tuned properly..... (auto tune doesnt always work) and the pricey equipment needed to PID control an element.

cheers
 
Gibbo,

You are going to get different opinions on PID versus on/off control, sensor placement, HERMS versus RIMS, how much 2degC in the mash makes to your fermentablity, to use a separate heat-exchanger or the HLT and many more questions.

These opposing opinions will come from some very highly qualified, experienced and knowledgable people on here.

You need to make your own decisions from these opinions and build your system and get some real world answers for yourself.

The HERMS I have now is very different to the original system I built.

cheers,

Kirk
 
100% aggree!

Build something to what gear you have and what control you can use effectivly and go from there

As i, kirem and many others did, findout what your systems problems are and change it to suit your brewing requirements.

No system is the same when we are talking about home made breweries and no control statagy can be put into place on the assumption of what your system will be like when its full of grain and hot water.

Build it and they will come :)

cheers
 

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