Sugar In Belgians

[Tony]

Ahhhh i got something right tonight.......... thats something.

I was planning on a dubbel first with the yeast.... say around the 1.066-68 mark...... adding some sugas as it goes, and then dumping a big 1.080 trippel on the yeast cake.

But may feed this slowly too.

cheers folks.

 

[kevo]

I made a Belgian strong dark (on extract) at the end of last year.

I made invert sugar from Graeme Sanders' recipe - really just toffee - about 10%.

Split the wort into four equal lots. Pitched into one of the mini-worts - which went nuts, enough yeast for the whole lot in only a quarter of the wort - then added another quarter every 24 hours. Raised the temp a bit towards the end and it seemed to finish up ok. I used Safbrew T58 yeast.

Tried it last December when it was very young and it seemed good - will open another bottle in the next two weeks.

Heard the process on the Brewing Network Rochefort show. Makes great sense to help the yeast cope with such a big o.g. Watching the daily rise and fall in fermentation id pretty cool too.

Kev

 

[Gough]

The theory behind adding sugar later, as I understand it, is that when yeast are in a high osmotic environment it causes malfunctions in meiosis (or is it mitosis :blink: ) and certain genes can be activated or deactivated during cell division resulting in changes to the production of certain enzymes involved in biochemical pathways and, hence, production of more junk byproducts like acetate. By trickle feeding the sugar you reduce this osmotic stress load and have healthier yeast. Which is essentially the same as the last explanation or two with a bit more detail on the mechanism.

Personally I believe a lot of the potential problem is overcome by adding a large starter of healthy yeast (less requirement for division in the stressful wort).

It is one of those 'it depends' type questions... Some swear by adding all fermentables before pitching and others swear that adding the sugar during fermentation keeps the yeast happier, stops them gorging too early on the 'junk food', and helps keep the 'hot' alcohols down in high gravity worts. I'm a subscriber to that theory. The 'junk byproducts' really stand out in styles like Tripels and so the later addition of the sugar is worth the effort IMO. Each to their own of course I recently brewed a high gravity Belgian style at home as a 'prototype' for a new Murray's beer and added the sugar during fermentation. Our winter seasonal to be released shortly on the other hand is a touch over 8% ABV and we added the dark brown sugar during the boil as we wanted a little bit of warmth in the finish of the beer. Different strokes and all that... In my experience it does make a difference in practice, and we are using sufficient quantities of very healthy yeast, pitched into well oxygenated worts.

Good luck with it Tony,

Shawn.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Shawn, you have more experience at comparing the two approaches than me so I certainly wouldn't argue that it makes a difference in practice. The main point of my post was to give a cursory explanation of the biochemical mechanism behind the theory. I also meant to say that the big healthy starter probably only works up to a certain gravity, maybe 1.070 or thereabouts. Beyond that I would definitely expect there to be benefits from a trickle feed.

Come to think of it, a tripel I made last year with all the sugar in the boil, while tasting pretty clean early on, seemed to have developed a bit more alcohol heat when I tried it a week or so ago. Not sure what that means ...maybe it has dried out a little and the higher alcohols are just more noticeable now.

 

[Jazman]

raw sugar

 

[KillerRx4]

ps. Killer Rx4........... what temperature did you find worked best with the yeast?

I aim for maintaining 18 deg from pitching until active fermentation then let it go to wherever it gets naturally & then maintain that temp until finish. It usually gets up to 24-26 by the end.

Im keen to try incremental feeding of sugars, maybe next batch.

 

[TidalPete]

raw sugar

+1 :super:

TP :beer:

 

[pmolou]

i'm also making a belgian soon and have dark candi rocks and have been trying to find out what taste they give to a brew say
3kg liquid malt pale
700grams dark candi
abbey II 1762 yeast
goldings hops

does this give a caramel or raisony flavour or what kind of flavour can i expect from dark candi sugar

 

[goomboogo]

Neonmate, thanks for the heads up on the Billingtons but can you expand on your comments on the Rochefort candy sugar?

 

[newguy]

For Tripels, I've added straight white table sugar to the boil, but reading about the reasons for adding it to the fermenter makes me want to try that.

For Dubbels and Dark Strongs, I've made my own dark candi sugar. It's a little tiring, but it works really well. The finished product has a classic rum & raisin flavour that carries through into the beer.

Procedure:
- Measure out 2kg of white table sugar into a large SS frying pan.
- Add 1 tsp of citric acid crystals.
- Place on the stove over low-moderate heat. On my electric stove, 1 = lowest setting and 10 is the highest. I adjust the heat to lie at about 3-4.
- Stir like mad! Seriously, just stir & stir & stir using a flat bottomed spoon or spatula so that you can scrape the bottom of the pan. The dry sugar will slowly start to get gummy and will eventually get very gummy and thick, very much like cookie dough. At this point, stirring is very difficult.
- Keep stirring - the mixture will turn into a liquid and stirring gets much easier. I keep going until it turns a nice medium copper colour.
- Remove from heat and pour onto some aluminum foil to cool.

In all the references I've consulted, temperature is a big issue when creating invert/candi/whatever sugar. They recommend using a special candymaker's thermometer to ensure that your sugar hits the right temperature. I think that a non-contact IR thermometer would work well. Since I don't have one of these thermometers, I don't try to make light coloured candi sugar. That's why I just use sucrose for Tripels.

If you've never tried this, give it a shot. Seriously, you get flavours from this stuff that you just can't get from any kind of brown or unprocessed sugar.

 

[neonmeate]

NeonmEate, thanks for the heads up on the Billingtons but can you expand on your comments on the Rochefort candy sugar?

yeah, firstly rochefort don't use candi sugar, they use "cassonade brune" which is a type of unrefined brown beet sugar. so it is really different to either the candi syrup or the rocks you can get, which are types of caramelised sugar (made from refined sugar)(although i am not sure about the syrup). so it's not candi sugar and doesn't have that toffee/caramel flavour. it has an extremely rich brown sugar sort of taste, except as i said before quite irony/earthy (because the unrefined flavour elements are from beets rather than cane, i'm guessing), which gives quite a unique flavour in the beer.

i havent tried the syrup yet but want to.... havent tried candi-fying me own either. i have tried the rocks and they are quite subtle in flavour and colour. they taste kind of like crystallised cocacola to me.

 

[warrenlw63]

Mmmm... Muscovado... That is a nice sugar for the style.

Shawn.

:lol: Shawn why do I get a mental picture of Ainsley Harriott with that statement?

Getting back to the original question from Tony all of the above should be good but I reckon half the fun is experimenting and seeing what you like.

For tripels any pale sugar is good, in other words plain old white table sugar, dextrose or even raw sugar. Dubbels would benefit from less sugar and more character from the specialty grains. NM's suggestion of Muscovado sounds really awesome. I've used it in a couple of British Ales and found it to be really nice and rummy.

My personal fave, though I can't lay claim to having delved in many sugars as others is Chinese Yellow Lump which is cheap and seems to work nicely in either pale or darker Belgians.

Like Shawn said it's more a case of avoiding the hotter Belgian fermentation byproducts in excess more than anything. Having used Wyeast 3787 I can say that this will occur if the yeast is handled badly (like I did with it).

Adding it to the secondary sounds a great idea. I've only done this once when I bought some brown Candi Crystals back from Europe several years ago and added them to a La Chouffe clone. Basically I primed the keg with the sugar component and bled the gas off until the secondary fermentation had subsided then forced carbed to get the correct carbonation level.

Seemed to give a smoother type of finish to a higher gravity Belgian.

Moreover Tony I reckon the biggest mistake (I've made personally) is attacking them way too early. Most stronger Belgians I've done (say over 6%) have benefitted from just sitting there in storage for at least 3 months.

BTW NM's experiences with sugars are valid. After having sampled his Gouden Carolus clone I was totally blown away. What a great example.

Warren -

 

[devo]

Moreover Tony I reckon the biggest mistake (I've made personally) is attacking them way too early. Most stronger Belgians I've done (say over 6%) have benefitted from just sitting there in storage for at least 3 months.


Warren -

Totally agree. I opened my last bottle of Dubbel on the weekend which had been sitting for approximately 4 months. I would have to say it really only just started to settle out and was a more balanced beer than say a couple of months earlier. I'm thinking of letting my next batch sit for about 6 months before hooking in.

 

[bierbaron]

hey guys
what sort of malts are you using?
i want to brew a triple/blonde, was thinking just pilsener malt with a bit of cara munich or somthing, with a high mash temp.??

 

[warrenlw63]

hey guys
what sort of malts are you using?
i want to brew a triple/blonde, was thinking just pilsener malt with a bit of cara munich or somthing, with a high mash temp.??

Hey bierbaron. Lower mash temp is better (64-65 degrees). You want a dry and well-attenuated beer. Full bodied Belgians and their lower hopping rates make for flabby beers otherwise.

Warren -

 

[bierbaron]

alright thanks warren

 

[shonky]

Re: adding sucrose to the primary or secondary, I am currently studying yeast (Ballarat brewing course) and been reading about the inhibition of maltose up-take caused by high levels of sucrose. My understanding of this mechanism is that high levels of glucose (sucrose is converted to glucose and fructose outside the yeast cell membrane) have an inhibitory effect on maltose uptake. Apparently this was found to be of particular concern with continuous fermentation systems. The theory being that if sucrose is added back in as a fermentable after the yeast has switched to maltose up-take, this stops maltose being able to be brought into the cell, potentially permanently. (Don't have the reference with me but IIRC was in Briggs, Brewing Science and Practice.)

The result of which being unfermented maltose at the end of fermentation.

It seems like a few of you are having good experiences adding sugar to the primary, and osmotic pressure in high-gravity worts is obviously still a problem which this gets around, but just thought I'd throw a bit of theory into this debate in case people see stuck ferments with this method. (the yeast-cell up-take mechanisms are controlled largely through gene expression and therefore it could be expected that the extent to which this is a problem would be highly strain dependant).

I have no practical experience with this and it could be that this is a case of too much theory with no practical significance on a homebrew scale and would be really interested if anyone can either confirm or deny my understanding (I have an essay due in which is concerned with this subject. Yeast is one helluva strange and complicated organism - :blink: )

 

[Gough]

Re: adding sucrose to the primary or secondary, I am currently studying yeast (Ballarat brewing course) and been reading about the inhibition of maltose up-take caused by high levels of sucrose. My understanding of this mechanism is that high levels of glucose (sucrose is converted to glucose and fructose outside the yeast cell membrane) have an inhibitory effect on maltose uptake. Apparently this was found to be of particular concern with continuous fermentation systems. The theory being that if sucrose is added back in as a fermentable after the yeast has switched to maltose up-take, this stops maltose being able to be brought into the cell, potentially permanently. (Don't have the reference with me but IIRC was in Briggs, Brewing Science and Practice.)

The result of which being unfermented maltose at the end of fermentation.

It seems like a few of you are having good experiences adding sugar to the primary, and osmotic pressure in high-gravity worts is obviously still a problem which this gets around, but just thought I'd throw a bit of theory into this debate in case people see stuck ferments with this method. (the yeast-cell up-take mechanisms are controlled largely through gene expression and therefore it could be expected that the extent to which this is a problem would be highly strain dependant).

I have no practical experience with this and it could be that this is a case of too much theory with no practical significance on a homebrew scale and would be really interested if anyone can either confirm or deny my understanding (I have an essay due in which is concerned with this subject. Yeast is one helluva strange and complicated organism)

Interesting info there shonky. Just to confuse things even further... :lol: We only use sugar in high gravity worts here at Murray's, and for that matter I generally only use sugar in high gravity worts at home. Using the late addition method I've not had any attenuation issues. Indeed given you are often looking for better attenuation/drier finish in beers with sucrose additions we are particularly conscious of achieving our desired terminal gravities in beers like the Grand Cru. Excise issues also complicate the matter. That said I'm not doubting stuck ferments could be an issue. Like many things in brewing there are many ways to achieve the desired outcome I guess Maybe Tony and a few of the others posting here who are maybe looking to use this method could post their results? Maybe if there are any issues with beers not finishing fermentation as expected we could see whether the late sucrose additions are at fault in themselves or whether there were other extenuating circumstances? In my experience here at Murray's and at home for that matter the results have always been very positive in terms of what we are trying to achieve by adding the sugar during early-mid fermentation in high gravity worts.

Good discussion this (Apart from being compared to Ainsley Harriot!! Thanks for nothing Warren )

Shawn.

 

[warrenlw63]

(Apart from being compared to Ainsley Harriot!! Thanks for nothing Warren )

Shawn.

Was the Hmmm... Muscavado bit.

I can remember Ainsley saying it more like;

mmmmmm....... Mussssscavvvvadoooooo. :lol:

Warren -

 

[Tony]

The one belgian i have brewed in the bast being a Trippel............ had all the sugars added in late in the kettle. It was white table sugar that i enverted and turned into rock candy............ thge colour of pee.

It was a 1.080 beer and the yeast did a great job untill it got to 1.030 and it stopped dead.

I had to heat it up to 22 or 23 deg for 4 weeks to get it down to the 1.01something range.

It won a few awards but i do recal it having a fair bit of warm alcahol, that gave you a shocker of a headache if you drank more than one bottle.

It also took 6 months plus to settle down and be enjoyable.

yeast was the WLP870 (i think) golden ale yeast.

I didnt make starters back then and id say i probably underpitched to buggery and stressed the yeast to hell in a 1.080 beer.

i think i used 12% sugar.

got a 2nd place at beerfest and a silver medal at ANAWBS so cant have been half bad.

cheers