Style Of The Week 16/8/06 - Belgian Dubbel

[warra48]

I've never brewed a Belgian of any sort previously, but I have a donated starter of WY3787. (Thanks to waggastew).

I'm thinking of an ale in the style of a Dubbel, although the colour is probably darker than style (I'm not concerned about this).

Any thoughts or suggestions on my first recipe design would be welcome.

Belgian Dubbel 23.00 L

4500.00 gm Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (5.9 EBC) Grain 75.00 %
500.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 8.33 %
200.00 gm Caraaroma (390.0 EBC) Grain 3.33 %
200.00 gm Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3.33 %
100.00 gm Amber Malt (85.0 EBC) Grain 1.67 %
25.00 gm Hallertau NZ [8.10 %] (60 min) Hops 19.0 IBU
10.00 gm Hallertauer Tradition [5.70 %] (5 min) Hops 1.1 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
500.00 gm Candi Sugar, Dark (541.8 EBC) Sugar 8.33 %
1 Pkgs Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787) Yeast-Wheat

Mash at 65C for 60 minutes. Anticipated OG 1.067.

 

[manticle]

I've brewed a few but most I've been fairly unhappy with. I'll give you what I consider helpful from what i've read and what I've tried.

First of all 3787 is pretty phenolic. I've used it a few times and it's a great yeast but if you don't get things right, the balance can suffer.

Secondly I've found sugar added in increments works better in high gravity belgians. Add a bit at a time after primary is finished (in your case maybe in two lots of 250 g).

Mash temp is something I've been trying to work out. My current thinking is that the best results will come from a step mash (pretty sure Orval mash low at the beginning and finish high - something like 63/72). Certainly i've had malty, full bodied, well attenuated beers recently from trying this kind of stepped sacch mash. Otherwise try mashing high but long - belgians are dry at the finish but deceptively full bodied - so are many German beers. My belief is that Belgians are a combination of English and German mashing/fermentation techniques.

As for style - I think a lot of the appeal of Belgian beer is rule breaking while still making good beer. Unfortuntely I've struggled to work out how they do it - most recent dubbel is the most promising yet but I won't know for another few months as I'm going to age it in bulk this time (so easy just to crack one more bottle).

 

[jakub76]

Hey Warra,
Just bottled a dubbel today, finished a few points lower than expected but trying a new yeast Wy1214 for the first time so I guess I'll take it as it comes. Good to read that the yeast you've got is quite phenolic. My previous dubbel based on Jamil's recipe (Hallertau instead of Tett) turned out just like Leffe Radieuse with huge dark fruit, malt complexity but little to no phenolics form WLP530. I much prefer Chimay Red with its giant caramel and spicey phenols so I changed my yeast, went for amber instead of dark candi syrup, pulled back a little on the specialty grains and used a pile of caramalt. Hydro sample tasted very promising though it's come in at 7.5% so it might need a few months to settle out.

Your recipe looks good though I would throw in 200-250g of Special B if you can get it. I reckon it will give you the raisin and dark dried fruit flavours that will bridge your malt profile with the dried fruit flavours that the dark candi will impart.

Are you using candi rocks or syrup? What's your preffered comercial example?

 

[warra48]

Thanks jakub.

Unfortunately, I was only in MHB's shop last Friday afternoon, and didn't get to pick up any Special B. I'll have to rely on the Caraaroma instead.

I was thinking of making my own candi sugar. Picked up some Citric Acid today, and plan to invert some sugar myself. I note Wyeast recommend adding the sugar during the fermentation process, so that's what I'll do, rather than adding it to the boil.

I'm never fussed about brewing exactly to style, so long as I make beers I enjoy. I have 4 litres of starter going gangbusters, so should have plenty of yeast to pitch.


Thanks also manticle. It wil be no problem to do a step mash, 63 & 72C is possible with my system. I note Wyeast suggest to ferment this yeast in the range of 18 to 25C. I'll probably start at 18C for the first couple of days, and then allow it to rise from there as I feed it the candi sugar.

 

[moonshine]

I've only made a few belgians (and the last triple i made wasn't really a triple due to a mixup with a us05 starter, made my american dark ale a bit interesting though)

the one double I made that realy did shine got a lot from the spesh B (raisins+dark malty yumm?)
and used wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II (a yeast i would definitely recommend again). the other Belgians i've made didn't really make it (good beer just notgreat?)

I based my recipe on a westmalle clone recipe crossed with a rochefort 8 clone recipe (tweaked to what i had in my brew cupboard) and adapted to BIAB.
I'll try and dig up the recipe cos it was a winner.

+1 to the adding of sugar incrementally.

 

[Gulpa]

Ive been reading up on this style after my last very average attempt at a Dubbel with the phenolic 3787. Apparently ester production increases significantly in higher gravity beers and this yeast seems to need lots of esters to balance the phenolics in the final beer. Your OG is only 1067 with sugars. I would be inclined to add the sugar to the boil to try an increase ester production. This yeast will chomp through that very easily.

my 2c

cheers
Andrew.

 

[warra48]

Ive been reading up on this style after my last very average attempt at a Dubbel with the phenolic 3787. Apparently ester production increases significantly in higher gravity beers and this yeast seems to need lots of esters to balance the phenolics in the final beer. Your OG is only 1067 with sugars. I would be inclined to add the sugar to the boil to try an increase ester production. This yeast will chomp through that very easily.

my 2c

cheers
Andrew.

Thanks Andrew.

I might actually up the base malt somewhat on this one, so the OG will be higher. The recipe is still in the planning stage, although I'll probably brew it this weekend or on Monday. As the yeast is a High Gravity yeast, I had thought it should be able to chew through a 1.070 to 1.075 brew easily enough. I guess if I can simplify the process, I'm all for it. I can control the fermentation temperature, so that is not an issue.

The starter is going nuts in 4 litres of wort. Seems to be a true top cropping yeast, as there is lots of it floating on top. Seems to be a lovely white creamy colour, much lighter than many other yeasts I've grown.

 

[stef]

I've been thinking about doing a Dubbel for a little while now. Thought i might do a small dubbel brew and a small tripple (like, 10ish litres of each- due to storage issues) and put them away for 6ish months...

I've got "Brewing like a monk" on its way here from the library to have a read of, as i dont really want to put away these brews for 6 months only to find out they are feral.

HOWEVER, i'm only gonna do them with extracts...

I'm after big, malty, sweet and fruity- for sipping on during winter nights. Got no idea about recipes yet, but thought i'd aim for about 10% for the tripple and 6-7% for dubbel. If anyone has done anything similar and has a recipe they want to share that'd be great. Otherwise i'll do my reading and see what i come up with!

I dont usually like very dark beers, so think i'm gonna try to keep them to a dark amberish colour...

 

[waggastew]

Stef,

I bottled my first dubbel attempt two weeks ago. I too dd a reduced batch size as I did not need/want 23L of high gravity beer, just something to sip occassionally next winter. In the end I used a TC Pilsener as a base kit, about 250mL of Belgian Candi Sugar, and about 250g of dex/malto dex. I pitched the 3787 Belgian High Grav yeast and it took about 4 weeks at 20dgeC to ferment out to 1010. From the tasting I did during bottling I would say:

1. You definitely need to use candi sugar (or suitable substitute) to get the right character
2. You definitely need a specialist yeast
3. This recipe could do with a bit more body, possibly by adding malt or doing a small steep with spesh B as discussed above.

BTW the volume was made upto 13L. Will report in 6 months when its had time to think about itself!

PS. The colour with the above recipe was a caramel golden colour, not at all dark (and therefore probably more in line colour wise with a triple)

 

[manticle]

Just sipping the occcasional glass of a recent attempt. I've had great trouble trying to make decent belgian style beers including dubbels. Most attempts have used 3787 which I think requires serious attention. It's adds a very strong character to a brew which if you get the balance right would no doubt be delicious - raisins, stone fruits etc. However I have been very dissatisfied with my attempts and have shelved them until I have a base recipe I'm happy with using a less phenolic yeast.

Current one used a slightly more complex grain bill and 1388. However it was initially intended to be aged as a sour beer - after chilling and tasting the wort I decided to add 1388 instead. Therefore the recipe is more complex and uses more crystal malts than my reading leads me to believe is necessary.

Has come out rich and delicious, with a beautiful red colour when held to the light. There are tweaks I would make such as reducing the amount of crystal, using belgian pilsner malt and dropping out either the vienna or munich but it's given me a good place to start. Might also up the IBU by 4 or 5 points next time and would probably step mash from 64 for 10 minutes to 68 for 50 minutes. The reason it's mashed so high with so much malty and crystally goodness is that brett beers (its original, intended destination) do well with a good whack of dextrins to chew on. Definite winter/christmas beer.

Recipe was

OAKED DUBBEL
Type: All grain
Size: 17 liters

Color: 33 HCU (~17 SRM
Bitterness: 23 IBU

OG: 1.059

FG: 1.005

Alcohol: 7.0% v/v (5.5% w/w)

Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner
1kg Wey Vienna
1kg Wey Munich
100g Ding Special B
250g JW med crystal 70-80L
250 JW dark crystal

Dark candi sugar in increments after primary of 100g up to 400g.

Mash: 69 degrees, 60 mins, 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.040 25 liters

Hops: 20g Styrian Goldings (3% AA, 60 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)

1388
Secondary oak for at least 1 month

 

[mje1980]

Been reading BLAM, and loving chimay red at the moment, so I'm going to brew this next. I love how its malty and not bone dry like the lighter Belgians. I plan on using a cube of brown ale to step up the yeast, as I think from the descriptors of the yeast, a brown ale might turn out nice with it.

82% MO ( out of pils )
5.7% amber invert ( demerrara )
4.1% Belgian dark candy syrup
4.1% flaked barley
2.5% biscuit
1.6% spec b

55-15, 62-45, 72-15

1.067
17.5 IBU

1762

I have some dates in the cupboard that I may try next time, but for my first, I'm going to go fairly conservative

 

[Logman]

I'm putting in a Belgian Stout today (my first Belgian :beerbang: ) and plan to add an Amber Candi Sugar at some point.

Should I stir this in at the start of fermentation or at day 4 or so?

If day 4, what's the procedure - does it need much stirring?

Oh, and I've got a Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II, is a starter essential - gravity is 1060 before the Candi Sugar....

 

[Logman]

I put the Belgian on yesterday without a starter, it was a recent batch of Wyeast and it's going crazy with the blow off tube - plus I figure it has two fermentation steps with the Candi Sugar going in so I wasn't concerned about the starter so much.

Just need a few tips on adding Candi Sugar at day 4 - anyone done this? Wondering how much it needs to be stirred in and how vigorously...

 

[manticle]

I put my candy in in stages once active fermentation has ceased. For example, if adding 800g total, I add 200g, wait a few days, then add 200 more.

I don't stir.

 

[beerbog]

My liquid candy sugar was put into the boil, 500g of the dark stuff. :beerbang:

 

[Logman]

I put my candy in in stages once active fermentation has ceased. For example, if adding 800g total, I add 200g, wait a few days, then add 200 more.

I don't stir.

I had some efficiency problems with this mash due to not adding enough water :unsure: - my first beer like this. Looking at 1.070 total (7.7 %) with the Candi Sugar. Are you adding it in steps to help the FG get right down or just to make sure all of the Candi Sugar is consumed?

 

[seamad]

I think the theory behind adding in increments is to help prevent production of higher alcohols and other "off" components from the yeast operating with a high OG with simple sugars.
Having said that I've made some belgians up tp 1.080 with all sugar in boil and not had problems.

 

[manticle]

I had some efficiency problems with this mash due to not adding enough water :unsure: - my first beer like this. Looking at 1.070 total (7.7 %) with the Candi Sugar. Are you adding it in steps to help the FG get right down or just to make sure all of the Candi Sugar is consumed?

Just to be a bit gentler on the yeast.

Some people report no issues but I have noticed higher alcohols in beers where I've added a kilo at once whereas my high gravity Belgians seem to exhibit less when I add in increments.

 

[scon]

Ah, just found this thread. Having a bunch of friends coming down for Christmas in July this year and am hoping to have some kind of tasty belgian style beer in prime drinking condition ready for the celebrations.

I'm just about to pull the trigger on this recipe. Anyone have any thoughts on it? I'll be going for the Belgian Candy Syrup D2, now with that, if I wanted to add that to primary in stages, would I water it down first so it would mix through more thoroughly? I understand that with regular sugar it probably wouldn't be a problem but I can see all of the syrup falling to the bottom and not being incorporated by the yeast? Or should I just add it at the end of the boil?

The other concern I have is with the spice additions, they're added at either 5 or 15 minutes, I'll probably be adding them in a voile bag, should I remove the bag before putting it in the fermenter to reduce off flavours or should they go straight into the primary?

 

[Logman]

Just to be a bit gentler on the yeast.

I see, OK well I'm using 500ml so I'll go for a couple of stages at least. Thanks for the tips gents.

If I wanted to add that to primary in stages, would I water it down first so it would mix through more thoroughly? I understand that with regular sugar it probably wouldn't be a problem but I can see all of the syrup falling to the bottom.

:lol: that's the sort of thing I was wondering, it's weird doing something for the first time.