Style Of The Week 16/8/06 - Belgian Dubbel

[Doc]

I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.

I have Wyeast 3787 Trappist and I think some 1388 Belgian strong ale in the yeast bank, any of these two close to White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale ? <_< Which I can't get up here.

3787 is WLP550, same strain (Westmalle). You're on. Although the white labs site reckons 550 is not that good for dubbel?

The old conversion chart from HBG says that WLP500 is WY3787.

Here is the old chart.

Beers,
Doc

View attachment White_Labs_vs_Wyeast_Comparison_v2.pdf

 

[DJR]

Aha... just the thing i was looking for. The belgian conversions are all over the place, everybody has a different set of conversions, i had read that they were the same. Seems that depending on who you ask, 3787 is either 500, 530 or 550!

Edit: I was thinking of WLP530, sorry. Still fine in a dubbel mind you. I think WLP530 is wy3787, according to a lot of other conversion charts i've seen. I think i'll shut up now.

 

[mikem108]

From BLAM
""Wyeast sources: 1214 (Chimay), 1762 (Rochefort), 3522 (Achouffe), 3787 (Westmalle), 3864 (Unibroue), 1388 (Duvel), 3538 (Corsendonk) White Labs sources: WLP500 (Chimay), WLP510 (Orval), WLP530 (Westmalle), WLP540 (Rochefort), WLP550 (Achouffe), WLP570 (Duvel).

 

[Doc]

From BLAM
""Wyeast sources: 1214 (Chimay), 1762 (Rochefort), 3522 (Achouffe), 3787 (Westmalle), 3864 (Unibroue), 1388 (Duvel), 3538 (Corsendonk) White Labs sources: WLP500 (Chimay), WLP510 (Orval), WLP530 (Westmalle), WLP540 (Rochefort), WLP550 (Achouffe), WLP570 (Duvel).

Isn't there also a chapter in BLAM that details which breweries share/swap their yeast as well ? ie. Does Chimay swap/share with Westmalle etc ?

Doc

 

[mikem108]

Doc
I think the Westmalle is the most swapped yeast, the other breweries in the area apparently rock up on brew day at Westmalle to pick up their yeast, the only one I can remember at the moment is that Westmalle and Westvleteren
use the same yeast but I recall there are at least one other that use Westmalle yeast and thats Achel?

 

[laurent]

The syrup is what the Belgians actually use and it is supposed to be much more authentic.
I had some on its way to me but Aussie Post mangled it and it got returned to sender in a rather sticky mess.

This is the stuff

Doc

Hi Doc,

from some online Belgian stores on HB, it seems that the Stuff comes in 2 shapes: Rock and Liquid. See here: Brouwland Candi Sugar page

Looking for more information on the sugar, the Belgian legal system states as follow:
Inverted sugar: less than 50% inverted sugar in dry weight. Liquid with less than 62% weight of dry solids
Inverted sugar syrup: more than 50% inverted sugar in dry weight. Liquid with less than 62% weight of dry solids
Candi Sugar: more than 96% Sucrose. Solid form
Candi Sugar syrup: Candi Sugar by-product. Liquid. More than 85% Sucrose in dry weight

It seems that your stuff is rather some Inverted Sugar syrup (the label itself does not state candi). However, everybody is refering to candi sugar in Belgium and Brewferm provides advanced kits with candi sugar in rock shape, so it must be sucrose.

All is confusing. I found some Lyle's golden syrup at Harry's farm the other day (3 for 6$). Let's see how this goes instead.

See ya,
Laurent

 

[Snow]

Excellent - a topic close to heart!

I've had very good success with the 3787 in both dubbels and Tripels (1st place in the 2003 nationals), but to keep it on topic, the best tasting dubbel I've made used this yeast. FWIW, the recipe is a partial mash:

1kg German Pilsener malt
2kg pale liquid malt extract
1kg pale dry malt extract
250g medium crystal malt (60L)
250g Cara Munich
250g Cara Aroma (dark crystal - 350 EBC)
55g Saaz pellets 60 mins
15g Fuggles pellets 2 mins

I also made a good dubbel (3rd highest score in Class at the 2005 ACT/QLD comp) with Wyeast 3944 in this recipe:

1.7kg German Pilsener
500g Light Munich
250g Amber
250g Melanoidin
400g Caramunich
400g Caraaroma
500g Dark Belgian Candi Sugar
2kg Light DME
30g Hallertau (3.4%AA) - 60 mins
25g Saaz (2.8%AA) - 60 mins
10g Goldings (4.7%AA) - 30 mins
10g Saaz (2.8%AA) - 10 mins

Both of these beers I fermented at 22-24C, with big (3-4L) starters and as much aeration as my arms coulkd administer at the time. I've found the toughest component to work out is the bitterness and hop aroma levels, depending on the type of yeast you're using. It's really just trial and error with one strain of yeast until you get it right. I also found that the 3787 tended to noticably mutate with multiple generations, and not necessarily for the worst. I still have a mutated version of that strain from 2002 and it is still producing nice tripels and wits.

The one thing I've had trouble in bringing out in my dubels is that elusive "plumminess" that the good commercial dubels have. I suspect it's the type of malt I'm using - caraaroma versus Special B, maybe?

Cheers - Snow.

 

[buddingbrewmaster]

thanks for the recipes snow.

i find it quite hard to find a good partial mash recipe for belgium styles. i might give one of yours a crack in a month or two, i'm just wondering what the size of your batches were.

cheers

 

[milpod]

'partigyle'

is english brew term?

 

[therook]

Dumped this onto a Belgian Pale Ale yeast cake of Ardennes last Tuesday, 5 days later it has finished fermenting.

Down from 1.072 - 1.012

Looks good, hope it tastes good

Belgian Daily Dubbel
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 7/12/2008
Style: Belgian Dubbel Brewer: Rook
Batch Size: 20.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 26.37 L Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %



Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 55.1 %
1.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (31.0 EBC) Grain 23.6 %
1.00 kg Candi Syrup Dark (180.0 EBC) Grain 15.7 %
0.20 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC) Grain 3.1 %
50.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (60 min) Hops 20.4 IBU
1.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
0.15 kg Cane Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 2.4 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.072 SG (1.062-1.075 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.018 SG (1.010-1.018 SG)
Estimated Color: 44.9 EBC (19.7-27.6 EBC)
Bitterness: 20.4 IBU (15.0-25.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 7.1 % (6.0-7.5 %)

Mashed at 67c - 90 minutes


Rook

 

[scott_penno]

Hi Rook,

Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?

sap.

 

[therook]

Hi Rook,

Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?

sap.

Funny you should ask that sappas as i just asked that same question to one of the members in an email

6 - 8 weeks

Rook

 

[[email protected]]

Had a Grimbergen Dubbel on my trip to Greece & England in September. Lovely beer, better than the numerous Tripel's I tried.

Cheers
Mal

 

[warrenlw63]

Hi Rook,

Have been considering brewing up a Belgian style ale. How long do you need to leave something like this to age before it's at it's peak in terms of drinkability?

sap.

Sappas

Probably a minimum of one month in the bottle. Somewhere around the 3 month mark should see it drinking well. Also being a bigger beer the carbonation can take a little longer in the bottle.

Good to see another Pascoe Vale resident on the forum!

Warren -

 

[petesbrew]

Got a chance for another AG very soon, so I'm gonna do a Dubbel
Just knocked this recipe up in beertools, any comments welcome, thanks guys.

Category Belgian Strong Ale
Subcategory Belgian Dubbel
Recipe Type All Grain
Batch Size 23 liters
Volume Boiled 33 liters
Mash Efficiency 72 %
Total Grain/Extract 6.91 kg.
Total Hops 47.0 g.
Calories (12 fl. oz.) 275.2
Cost to Brew $32.63 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.) $0.50 (USD)

5 kg. Australian Traditional Ale
0.5 kg. German Dark Munich
0.25 kg. Belgian Special B
.250 kg. Weyermann CaraMunich III
0.1 kg. Melanoidin Malt
0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark
0.31 kg. Cane Sugar
30 g. Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 6.00 %AA) boiled 60 min.
17 g. Saaz (Pellets, 5.00 %AA) boiled 5 min.
Yeast : White Labs WLP530 Abbey Ale

 

[bindi]

You lose 10L during the boil,boil for how long, and where do you get the 0.25 kg. Belgian Special B [I now use Cararoma in it's place], why 0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark +
0.31 kg. Cane Sugar and not one or the other? Otherwise go for it.

 

[petesbrew]

You lose 10L during the boil,boil for how long, and where do you get the 0.25 kg. Belgian Special B [I now use Cararoma in it's place], why 0.5 kg. Candi Sugar Dark +
0.31 kg. Cane Sugar and not one or the other? Otherwise go for it.

Cheers Bindi, here's the answers to your questions.
1. Boiling up for 90min... yeah, um evaporation rates are a bit sketchy there. I may drop that initial amount down a few litres (especially after diluting my last AG)

2. Looking in Brewing Classic Styles, they mention Special B (120L) 227g.... I think I'll go for your Cararoma in it's place. I still have Sweet FA idea about all the different Cara grains, so am open to suggestiions and experimentation.

3. Sugar, as above, but yeah, I'll take it as it comes. Might even use 300g Palm sugar in place of the cane sugar (as per a previous Big Brew Day BGSA recipe).
The dark candy sugar will be home made.

 

[glennheinzel]

Special B is available from Craftbrewer and others.

 

[glennheinzel]

Petesbrew - The Hills are alive with the sound of Dubbels because I'll be brewing the following on Saturday-

OG 1.064
IBU 23
Batch size 21 litres
4.9kg Wey Pils
0.45kg Munich
340g Belgian Candi sugar (I will be playing around with sugar quantities)
230g Cane Sugar
230g Belgian Aromatic
230g CaraMunich
230g Special B
43g Tettnang 4% for 60 min. (may sub with Hallertau tradition or similar)
WLP500

FYI - The recipe is mostly based on JZ's and he lists a mixture of candi and cane sugar.

Edit - Doc cracked the grains last night and it smelled amazing (Belg Aromatic?). I can't wait to actually mash in tomorrow morning.

 

[petesbrew]

Petesbrew - The Hills are alive with the sound of Dubbels because I'll be brewing the following on Saturday-

OG 1.064
IBU 23
Batch size 21 litres
4.9kg Wey Pils
0.45kg Munich
340g Belgian Candi sugar (I will be playing around with sugar quantities)
230g Cane Sugar
230g Belgian Aromatic
230g CaraMunich
230g Special B
43g Tettnang 4% for 60 min. (may sub with Hallertau tradition or similar)
WLP500

FYI - The recipe is mostly based on JZ's and he lists a mixture of candi and cane sugar.

Edit - Doc cracked the grains last night and it smelled amazing (Belg Aromatic?). I can't wait to actually mash in tomorrow morning.

Cheers Glenn,
Haven't got aromatic, so I'm using Melanoiden in it's place.
That's pretty much the recipe I was looking at as well, but also looking through the brew like a monk book I may throw 100g raisins into the fermenter as well.

I'll tee up Doc this week to crack it all, and grab that urn of yours. Cheers!