chappo1970
Piss off or Buy Me A Beer
Sorry RevKnut not to up with this Style. Will be after this months BABBS meeting thou.
Maybe someone else can step in?
Chappo
Maybe someone else can step in?
Chappo
Style Of The Week 10/06/08 - Old Ale
- Thread starter Stuster
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reviled
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Stuster
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Personally, I think there's just too much going on there. The number of grains and sugars, along with the hops, along with the yeast and brett might just end up being a bit messy.
I'd cut back to two types of crystal (maybe caramunich and caraaroma). One type of sugar or none. I think the molasses might be a bit much but I've never used it in a beer so if you have and you like it then go for it of course. I think such small amounts of rye and wheat will be unnoticeable but won't do any harm. Munich seems like a good idea. Since this is a beer you are going to be keeping a while, I think it might be leaving out the final hop additions, or just leaving one at flame out along with a simple bittering addition. Mashing high seems like a good idea.
I'd cut back to two types of crystal (maybe caramunich and caraaroma). One type of sugar or none. I think the molasses might be a bit much but I've never used it in a beer so if you have and you like it then go for it of course. I think such small amounts of rye and wheat will be unnoticeable but won't do any harm. Munich seems like a good idea. Since this is a beer you are going to be keeping a while, I think it might be leaving out the final hop additions, or just leaving one at flame out along with a simple bittering addition. Mashing high seems like a good idea.
reviled
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Cheers mate, thats some good info, back to the drawing board 
So re crystals, I could drop the dark crystal, and keep the caraaroma and caramunich, but had the caraamber in there as its not really a crystal malt, more of a biscuit malt and thought it could add complexity?
Oh, and I havnt used the molasses before thats why there was only a small amount
So re crystals, I could drop the dark crystal, and keep the caraaroma and caramunich, but had the caraamber in there as its not really a crystal malt, more of a biscuit malt and thought it could add complexity?
Oh, and I havnt used the molasses before thats why there was only a small amount
reviled
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Is it really? Cos ive also read that CaraRed and CaraMunich are medium crystals as well, which seems wierd that they would make three different types of medium crystal?
Isnt caraamber similair to belgian Biscuit?
Edit : Was talking to someone that said Caramunich is their crystal, caraamber is a lightly toasted biscuit and carared was a bit more toasted but that its still not a crystal malt???
Zwickel, where are ya?
Stuster
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Quintrex
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Drop the molasses imo. Ferments out leaving a harsh flavour. Not a fan!!
BTW if you want to keep the rye, maybe add more than 150g, don't think it'll add anything discernable at this level.
Q
reviled
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There seems to be alot of debate about this over here, a few people swear that they aint crystal malts, allthough ive read those specs and just had another squizz and they do go in colour order...
But then Cara-Aroma is a sub for special B, caraamber is a sub for Biscuit, so theres gotta be more to the picture...
And Quintrex, ive got 150gms of Rye lying around so thought "why not" :icon_cheers:
Stuster
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If Weyerman say they are caramel malts, that's good enough for me. :lol:
Special B is a crystal malt too BTW.
reviled
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Fair enough I guess, I dont wanna argue with the guys who make it
its just they seem so far different from each other, I mean, ive got CaraRed, CaraAmber, CaraAroma, and CaraMunich and they all have completely different qualities IMO, not like say dark and medium crystal where they are still quite similair..
reviled
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Allrighty - revised recipe - are we looking a bit tidier? Still too much? Everything is in there for a reason which ive listed next to it
4kg 200g Pale
150g Wheat malt - head retention
960g Munich - maltiness
60g Melanoidin - beef up the munich
120g CaraAmber - biscuit character
120g CaraMunich - fruit and nut character
180g CaraAroma - raisins yum lol
150g Rye - slight oilyness attributed
300g brown sugar - slight toffee flavour
FWH : 20g NZ Goldings, 20g Willamette
15 : 10g NZ Goldings, 15g Williamette
Wyeast 1469 - Then Brett
4kg 200g Pale
150g Wheat malt - head retention
960g Munich - maltiness
60g Melanoidin - beef up the munich
120g CaraAmber - biscuit character
120g CaraMunich - fruit and nut character
180g CaraAroma - raisins yum lol
150g Rye - slight oilyness attributed
300g brown sugar - slight toffee flavour
FWH : 20g NZ Goldings, 20g Willamette
15 : 10g NZ Goldings, 15g Williamette
Wyeast 1469 - Then Brett
Quintrex
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Looks great, I'd go back to your old hop schedule though, I prefer to add more hops to beers I wanna keep.
Mhhh save me a bottle
Q
reviled
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Looks great, I'd go back to your old hop schedule though, I prefer to add more hops to beers I wanna keep.
Mhhh save me a bottle
Q
Interesting - I normally like lots of hops also but was going by what Stuster said, and seeing as ill be keeping it a fairly long time the hop character might diminish...
lol, decisions decisions eh? Love this game :icon_cheers:
And ill save you a bottle - the catch is you got to come to Auckland to drink it
A few prejudices, which may be taken or left:
1. I would use about 1 kg of wheat and/or rye malt as a body booster. Rye starts to become noticeable (and possibly objectionable to some) after about 0.5 kg, so that probably means 50:50. There have been other suggestions to use high glucan stuff, like raw barley. Personally, I don't think it adds too much that can't be achieved other ways. Another IMHO: I fail to see what maize would contribute to this sort of a brew. Oats, however, are useful for their oily, sweet note (at about 10% or 0.5 kg). Unlike the rest of the brewing universe, I prefer whole, husks-on oats to oatmeal, as they are less gummy and also more flavoursome. They present the problem that they tend to pass straight through my Valley Mill on the smallest setting. They don't seem to need pre-gelatinisation. I have also encountered a husked, less elongated variety that basically reeked of horsefeed and was way more gummy. That could actually go well with Brett ...
2. But all the stock ales I have tried have been more acidic than barnyard. Letting the Brett rip on the whole batch could be a bit much, so maybe a blend would be the way to go. You don't see too many dark lambics. I would personally be more concerned about getting some lactic character in there. This can boost the eventual ester content. Can't see the point of flavouring hops combined with Brett.
3. Molasses is one of those things that tastes wonderful until the sugar is stripped away, and so by the time you can taste it it is too much. 200g max is my limit. In that case, I would thin the brew with white sugar or dextrose. Combining molasses and brown sugar doesn't make a lot of sense. The sugars could be caramelised either in advance, or as part of a high-gravity wort boil. In that case, you don't need golden syrup.
4. It is debatable whether munich, vienna or the like is needed when using large quantities of caramel malts. I have used up to 2 kg of JWM's dark crystal and, contrary to conventional wisdom, the gravity didn't finish too high. Weyermann's cararoma, on the other hand, seems to be much more dextrinous. You want as much dark caramel malt as possible to provide oxidised products. It helps to balance the sweetness of the caramel malts with a small amount (100-125g) of highly roasted species. My most vinous brew ever used 1kg of roast barley, which is about double what most people would employ in stouts. The acidity of the caramel malts can screw up the mash unless corrected, but they should be at least added at mash-out for no other reason than that the grain bed is a practically effective filter and will reduce losses to the sediment.
5. Consider some subtle spicing. Licorice root, star anise and fennel all work well with dark brews.
1. I would use about 1 kg of wheat and/or rye malt as a body booster. Rye starts to become noticeable (and possibly objectionable to some) after about 0.5 kg, so that probably means 50:50. There have been other suggestions to use high glucan stuff, like raw barley. Personally, I don't think it adds too much that can't be achieved other ways. Another IMHO: I fail to see what maize would contribute to this sort of a brew. Oats, however, are useful for their oily, sweet note (at about 10% or 0.5 kg). Unlike the rest of the brewing universe, I prefer whole, husks-on oats to oatmeal, as they are less gummy and also more flavoursome. They present the problem that they tend to pass straight through my Valley Mill on the smallest setting. They don't seem to need pre-gelatinisation. I have also encountered a husked, less elongated variety that basically reeked of horsefeed and was way more gummy. That could actually go well with Brett ...
2. But all the stock ales I have tried have been more acidic than barnyard. Letting the Brett rip on the whole batch could be a bit much, so maybe a blend would be the way to go. You don't see too many dark lambics. I would personally be more concerned about getting some lactic character in there. This can boost the eventual ester content. Can't see the point of flavouring hops combined with Brett.
3. Molasses is one of those things that tastes wonderful until the sugar is stripped away, and so by the time you can taste it it is too much. 200g max is my limit. In that case, I would thin the brew with white sugar or dextrose. Combining molasses and brown sugar doesn't make a lot of sense. The sugars could be caramelised either in advance, or as part of a high-gravity wort boil. In that case, you don't need golden syrup.
4. It is debatable whether munich, vienna or the like is needed when using large quantities of caramel malts. I have used up to 2 kg of JWM's dark crystal and, contrary to conventional wisdom, the gravity didn't finish too high. Weyermann's cararoma, on the other hand, seems to be much more dextrinous. You want as much dark caramel malt as possible to provide oxidised products. It helps to balance the sweetness of the caramel malts with a small amount (100-125g) of highly roasted species. My most vinous brew ever used 1kg of roast barley, which is about double what most people would employ in stouts. The acidity of the caramel malts can screw up the mash unless corrected, but they should be at least added at mash-out for no other reason than that the grain bed is a practically effective filter and will reduce losses to the sediment.
5. Consider some subtle spicing. Licorice root, star anise and fennel all work well with dark brews.
brettprevans
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my 2c worth (already been conversin with reviled about this).
molasses seems to be a must in old ales.
I recon go the brown sugar instead of maple syrup. if you wanted some more 'sweetness' you could caramalise some of a small amount of the runnings.
maybe bit of chocmalt or touch of black patent (replaces some of the carras)? for that older bold flavour that will mature with time.
Rye & Melanoidin are a nice touch. love Melanoidin in dark beers.
not sure about IBU. Ive seen a few recipes rang from about 30 -90 IBU. not exactly sure where in the range is best. i suppose if its more of a scottish old ale then less and if its more of an old english ale then more heavily hopped. I personally might shoot for 45.
it really depends on what sort of old ale your shooting for. if your after that really hard aged big casky brett flavour then your going to have to give it hell and wait for it to mature.
im also going to do an old ale and use w9097.
molasses seems to be a must in old ales.
I recon go the brown sugar instead of maple syrup. if you wanted some more 'sweetness' you could caramalise some of a small amount of the runnings.
maybe bit of chocmalt or touch of black patent (replaces some of the carras)? for that older bold flavour that will mature with time.
Rye & Melanoidin are a nice touch. love Melanoidin in dark beers.
not sure about IBU. Ive seen a few recipes rang from about 30 -90 IBU. not exactly sure where in the range is best. i suppose if its more of a scottish old ale then less and if its more of an old english ale then more heavily hopped. I personally might shoot for 45.
it really depends on what sort of old ale your shooting for. if your after that really hard aged big casky brett flavour then your going to have to give it hell and wait for it to mature.
im also going to do an old ale and use w9097.
warrenlw63
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Alternatively you could get your hands on some treacle. Preferably not the CSR stuff (or whatever it's NZ equivalent is). Lyle's Black Treacle would probably be the best bet. Most British type grocery or confectionery stores usually have it. It's flavour is less-intense than that of molasses.
Warren -
Warren -
reviled
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So is 60gms of molasses really going to leave me with an overpowering taste in the beer? I thought such a small amount would be ever so subtle??
I was going to let the brew ferment out with 1469 first, then pitch brett when its finished, but was planning on mashing high to leave a fair amount of food for the brett... And im definately expecting to have to age this for a while to let that desirable brett character develop..
Also I might up the IBU's a tad seeing as it will be aged, maybe just a FWH and a FO addition like Stuster suggested?
I was going to let the brew ferment out with 1469 first, then pitch brett when its finished, but was planning on mashing high to leave a fair amount of food for the brett... And im definately expecting to have to age this for a while to let that desirable brett character develop..
Also I might up the IBU's a tad seeing as it will be aged, maybe just a FWH and a FO addition like Stuster suggested?
Gunna try this. love to do it tomorrow, but doubt i'll get it done.
Barking dog strong ale
81.1% JW trad
6.8% Wheat
8.1% Cara aroma
4.1% golden naked oats
17g Galena @ 60
90g Challenger @ 10
1.070
43.9 IBU
7.1%
1968.
Planning on mashing around 67, and a 90 min boil. Balanced water adjustments. Hops wise, the IBU's are split almost 50/50, so half will come from the small galena addition, and half will come from the 90g challenger @ 10 mins, so should be more hoppy than bitter. Calc'd, it'll stop at 1.017, but i think i can get it lower than that, as i'll probably do a 4% bitter as a "starter" hehe, so will probably be a touch stronger.
This will be bottled
Barking dog strong ale
81.1% JW trad
6.8% Wheat
8.1% Cara aroma
4.1% golden naked oats
17g Galena @ 60
90g Challenger @ 10
1.070
43.9 IBU
7.1%
1968.
Planning on mashing around 67, and a 90 min boil. Balanced water adjustments. Hops wise, the IBU's are split almost 50/50, so half will come from the small galena addition, and half will come from the 90g challenger @ 10 mins, so should be more hoppy than bitter. Calc'd, it'll stop at 1.017, but i think i can get it lower than that, as i'll probably do a 4% bitter as a "starter" hehe, so will probably be a touch stronger.
This will be bottled
In between painting skirting boards and mowing, i managed to get the beer brewed. Made a few changes, so here is the final recipe.
79.5% JW trad ale
6.6% Wheat
8% Cara aroma
4% Golden naked oats
1% Black malt
.9% Lyle's dark treacle
10g galena 60 mins
90g challenger 10mins
1.072
44 IBU
Managed to hit the gravity spot on, which im very happy about, as with big beers normally i fall short.
Will use the thames 2, or 1968, just dont know which one yet.
The golden naked oats are a trip!. Taste and smell a little like porridge or something. Im thinking they will add some silky mouthfeel. Hope so anyway. Won't get brewed for a few weeks yet, as i have a few already in the works, but im in no hurry.
79.5% JW trad ale
6.6% Wheat
8% Cara aroma
4% Golden naked oats
1% Black malt
.9% Lyle's dark treacle
10g galena 60 mins
90g challenger 10mins
1.072
44 IBU
Managed to hit the gravity spot on, which im very happy about, as with big beers normally i fall short.
Will use the thames 2, or 1968, just dont know which one yet.
The golden naked oats are a trip!. Taste and smell a little like porridge or something. Im thinking they will add some silky mouthfeel. Hope so anyway. Won't get brewed for a few weeks yet, as i have a few already in the works, but im in no hurry.
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