Stout Yeast

[Boozy the clown]

Chasps,


I'm going to put four brews down at once, I'm thinking of using the wyeast 1388 or wyeast 3056 for a coopers stout...

I know its going against the grain, surely it wont give the stout a psychodelic *&%$^ taste, or would it?

** brother of sugar monster in the wings, esb bav wheat to 18ltrs and some other 'thing' to make up the four... The usual 'boozy' load up...

I'm hoping if i used the same yeast for all four they will all go ok kept at same temps... its getting cold down camden way.

 

[Trough Lolly]

It is interesting that the yeast autloysis flavours are much sought after in sparkling wines, yet are to be avoided in beer.

The premium bubblies spend several years 'on lees' so that the autolysis flavours are integrated into the wine. They add complexity to the wine. I associate them with bready, toasty or smelly socks elements that sit well with the wine's natural acids.

I guess our bottle carbonated beer will eventually pick up autolytic flavours if we leave them long enough? How long does this take?

[post="119923"][/post]​

G'day BlueJ,
//warning - sweeping and totally unscientific generalisations follow!//
All non-pasteurised beer or beer that sits on a yeast bed is theoretically subject to autolysis at some point in time, regardless of the size or type of vessel that the beer is held in - the trick is being able to consume the beer beforehand!
As well intentioned home brewers we are also at risk of losing beer due to other contaminants that our non totally aseptic brewing environments have. I've drunk bottle carbonated beer that I made over 18 months ago, but in fairness, it was a fairly strong old ale (Theakstons' Peculier clone) and probably had sufficient alcohol to offset bacterial infection.
The yeast flocced out quite well and sat like a very thin but firm concrete pad in the bottom of the bottle. Pouring the beer, the yeast cake didn't move until the last few mils of beer were being poured...
Undisturbed in the cellar, the yeast simply went dormant after carbonating the beer.

With good sanitation protocols you should be able to keep home made beer for at least 12 months, probably more...
//sweeping mode ends!//

Cheers,
TL

 

[hupnupnee]

Trough Lolly,

Wondering if you wouldnt mind making another sweeping statement in answer to this question.

I agree with you that the yeast is unlikely to lyse in the bottle to any great extent. Lysis accurs when cells die as a means of recycling nutrients and simply because the mechanisms that hold the cells together are now no longer there. Some yeast in a bottle conditioned beer will be dead and will lyse however I feel most are probably just dormant, and thus will not impart any yeasty flavours to the beer.
So here is the question: If that statement is correct, in your opinion and anyone elses, what limits the longevity of beer keeping and what factors effect that.

 

[razz]

Trough Lolly,

Wondering if you wouldnt mind making another sweeping statement in answer to this question.

I agree with you that the yeast is unlikely to lyse in the bottle to any great extent. Lysis accurs when cells die as a means of recycling nutrients and simply because the mechanisms that hold the cells together are now no longer there. Some yeast in a bottle conditioned beer will be dead and will lyse however I feel most are probably just dormant, and thus will not impart any yeasty flavours to the beer.
So here is the question: If that statement is correct, in your opinion and anyone elses, what limits the longevity of beer keeping and what factors effect that.

[post="121262"][/post]​

Pardon me for chipping in fellas, I found this site on Google.
http://www.draymans.com/Articles/Autolises.php
I think it may have some answers you are looking for.

 

[Weizguy]

<chopped>
I'm going to put four brews down at once, I'm thinking of using the wyeast 1388 or wyeast 3056 for a coopers stout...
I know its going against the grain, surely it wont give the stout a psychodelic *&%$^ taste, or would it?
</chopped>

[post="120218"][/post]​

Boozy,

(Puts on his radio-voice/ voice of experience) I have made an English-style pale with W3056. It was an accident due to mislabelling of yeast. I could definitely taste the wheat beer character, as there must have been a wheat component in the extract I used.
It took a number of months to mellow to where I could enjoy the ale, whereas my mate (who got half the batch...as the recipe was one of his faves) quite happily drank it from the get-go. Oh, the flavours?: banana and phenolics, as well as Goldings and crystal malt. It just didn't work for me.

Seth

 

[BlueJ]

The yeast flocced out quite well and sat like a very thin but firm concrete pad in the bottom of the bottle. Pouring the beer, the yeast cake didn't move until the last few mils of beer were being poured...
Undisturbed in the cellar, the yeast simply went dormant after carbonating the beer.

With good sanitation protocols you should be able to keep home made beer for at least 12 months, probably more...
//sweeping mode ends!//

Cheers,
TL

[post="121255"][/post]​

Thanks TL, this gives me some confidence because we have made a stout - our 2nd brew - and the brother-in-law wants to mature it until winter. Not that winter is far away if you live in Melbourne...

I have noticed the yeast in our 1st brew are sitting quietly at the bottom of the bottle, and not moving much at all during pouring. I have to shake the bottle vigorously to clean it after pouring. So it is exactly as you describe.

If indeed the yeast is going dormant, then I don't think we will need to worry about autolysis in the medium term unless perhaps we disturb the yeast somehow.

If our beers are any good they won't last too long anyway, and isn't that the point of the exercise?

The brother-in-law will try one of our stouts tonight. I will ask him if the yeast are sitting quietly at the bottom yet. The stout has been bottle fermenting for about a week now.

PS I know an East German bloke in Canberra who makes his own dunkelweizen...ring any bells?

 

[Trough Lolly]

Trough Lolly,

Wondering if you wouldnt mind making another sweeping statement in answer to this question.

I agree with you that the yeast is unlikely to lyse in the bottle to any great extent. Lysis accurs when cells die as a means of recycling nutrients and simply because the mechanisms that hold the cells together are now no longer there. Some yeast in a bottle conditioned beer will be dead and will lyse however I feel most are probably just dormant, and thus will not impart any yeasty flavours to the beer.
So here is the question: If that statement is correct, in your opinion and anyone elses, what limits the longevity of beer keeping and what factors effect that.

[post="121262"][/post]​

//Slips on the labcoat - looking suspiciously like an overweight AFL goal umpire!!//
Off the top of my head, I'd say there are three key elements in relation to storing beer that has significant quantities of yeast present: storage conditions for the final beer produced, the composition of the beer that the yeast sits under and the strength or otherwise of the yeast used.

I've done nothing in the way of a scientific rigorous study so I'll just wing it on my own experience here; cool, dark storage is good for beer - heat and light do affect maturation of beer in glass or PET bottles.
The beer composition will be the substantial stress source for the yeast in the solution - and as Razz helpfully points out in Kallmeyer's article (yep, read it some time ago thanks...) that a lack of yeast nutrients will affect the yeast and once the yeast goes dormant in suspension, the composition of the beer, including pH, ethanol / alcohol content, lack of glucose / maltose, even pressure levels in the bottle etc all play a role in establishing a potentially hostile environment for the yeast cells.
Yeast that has undergone several acid washes also tends to take longer to ferment and although I have no formal evidence to back this claim, I'd suggest that a healthy, viable, adequate population of fresh yeast in the brew will have better tolerance to long term dormancy in the beer than a multiple pitched, under or over pitched, stressed, low glycogen levelled, possibly mutated yeast in the same beer.
Please don't confuse this claim as a criticism of the wonderful practice of yeast harvesting and culturing from plated media or slants that are carefully managed and maintained by brewers over many years who have good aseptic protocols.

So, the short answer is - it depends on how you store your beer, and what your beer contains. Sorry that doesn't help much, but a beer that's made with fresh ingredients, with a decent boil, and under clean sanitary procedures will stand an excellent chance of lasting and indeed, maturing in the bottle, for quite some time.
//tosses lab coat back into the fancy dress cupboard //

Pardon me for chipping in fellas, I found this site on Google.
http://www.draymans.com/Articles/Autolises.php
I think it may have some answers you are looking for.

[post="121272"][/post]​

Thanks Razz, it's one of many good starter articles on yeast. There are heaps of interesting articles on the net that cover autolysis. When I wanted to know more about it, I googled on hbd.org and mbaa.com. I found a lot of interesting insights, and contradicting opinions on what causes it and how to manage it too!

For an interesting paper on yeast recovery you might want to read on a stormy night when you've got no brewing to do...Click here: [URL="http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/Articles/2005/TQ-42-0219.pdf"]http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/Articles.../TQ-42-0219.pdf[/URL]

Cheers,
TL

 

[razz]

Thanks TL, don't mind if I do !

 

[Trough Lolly]

Thanks TL, this gives me some confidence because we have made a stout - our 2nd brew - and the brother-in-law wants to mature it until winter. Not that winter is far away if you live in Melbourne...

I have noticed the yeast in our 1st brew are sitting quietly at the bottom of the bottle, and not moving much at all during pouring. I have to shake the bottle vigorously to clean it after pouring. So it is exactly as you describe.

If indeed the yeast is going dormant, then I don't think we will need to worry about autolysis in the medium term unless perhaps we disturb the yeast somehow.

PS I know an East German bloke in Canberra who makes his own dunkelweizen...ring any bells?

[post="121332"][/post]​

Yep, tis a good time to be brewing stouts - hell, I enjoy a decent stout anytime, but after a big roast dinner on a cold winter's night, a pint or two of stout is the way to go!
As an ex-pat Melbournite, I know where you're coming from re the weather - that's why God invented 4n20 pies for Saturday at the footy, wasn't it?!!

If our beers are any good they won't last too long anyway, and isn't that the point of the exercise?

Exactly! I've never had autolysis in my beers because they've never lasted that long in the bottle or keg!

The brother-in-law will try one of our stouts tonight. I will ask him if the yeast are sitting quietly at the bottom yet. The stout has been bottle fermenting for about a week now.

He'll probably find it a tad sweet to the taste - a week in the bottle is bugger all time for the priming sugars to carbonate the beer, assuming that you actually added sugars when you bottled the stout. I'd give the stout at least 3 weeks before you drink - it gets better over time...

- there's heaps of excellent Dunkleweizen brewers in and outside of the club, up here!!

Cheers,
TL

 

[delboy]

TL you really are the Father Ted of brewing I love all your post they are funney and informative .

and i am sure you picked that avitar as it was the closest thing to you in real life LoL i always picture this avitar talking when i read your posts .

thanks for the fun aspect of it all


delboy "just like that" :beer: