Steep Vs. Mash

[stef]

I had a thought the other day whilst planning my first AG.

How come when making a k&k or extract, if grains are added (such as crystal) it is steeped for 20ish minutes, with too much more considered bad and will likely impart unwanted flavours or tannins etc, but when mashing, all the grain goes in together. This would mean any non base malt grains would be effectively mashed (which seems similar to steeping?) for like 60 or 90 mins? It doesnt impart bad flavours in AG though?

I could be way off the mark- its just something i wanted clarified.

On another note, my brother in law was around yesterday, gave him my first homebrew effort that i was proud(ish) of (just an extract). He's a long time homebrew sceptic, but he ended up asking for a carton to take home!


cheers,

stef

 

[zebba]

I wasn't aware that steeping for longer was that bad... From what I gather, tannins are an issue from over hot water and PH, not time.

Are you thinking of roasted grains? Some people suggest cold steeping and things like that for roasted grains as it won't impart as much astringency. In a similar vein, many people add roasted grains for the last 15 minutes of mash for this reason.

 

[felten]

like zeb said, tannin extraction is more a function of higher temperatures, and higher pH.

 

[stm]

Stef - as above, the reason for the time difference is not because of tannins or other bad flavours.

When steeping only specialty grains (eg, crystal) for k&k/extract, you just need to dissolve the sugars out of the grain, thus you don't need very long, only 20 mins or so. Spec grains have been malted in such a way that the starches are already converted to sugars. The only difference if you steep for 60-90 mins is that you have wasted 40-70 mins.

When mashing base grains for AG/partials, you need to convert the starches to sugars (using the enzymes also present in the malted base grains). This is what takes time, so it is generally recommended to mash for at least 60 mins (and often up to 90 mins) to ensure full conversion.

It is just for simplicity that all grains (spec grains and base grains) go in together in a mash for 60-90 mins, and there's no downside to the spec grains having been steeped/mashed for that long.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[booyablack]

Experts,

Is there any reason (other than efficiency) why you couldn't use steeped specialty grains ONLY as your fermentable component of a brew (i.e. no DME, LME or base malts)? You would not need to mash but you would obviously still need to boil.

I've read conflicting data on this forum (and the greater interwebs) but from my understanding the spec grains have been malted and roasted such that the starches have already been converted to sugars which just need to be dissolved in water. This wort would then have all the necessary components for a hops boil and fermentation.

Would this be possible but just ill-advised due to the spec grain taste, colours etc. becoming too overwhelming when used exclusively?

 

[Nick JD]

Experts,

Is there any reason (other than efficiency) why you couldn't use steeped specialty grains ONLY as your fermentable component of a brew (i.e. no DME, LME or base malts)? You would not need to mash but you would obviously still need to boil.

I've read conflicting data on this forum (and the greater interwebs) but from my understanding the spec grains have been malted and roasted such that the starches have already been converted to sugars which just need to be dissolved in water. This wort would then have all the necessary components for a hops boil and fermentation.

Would this be possible but just ill-advised due to the spec grain taste, colours etc. becoming too overwhelming when used exclusively?

You'd want to steep them in the mashing temperature range for a fair while to effectively extract the sugaz, so you'd technically be mashing anyway. Also, the kilning process will have caramelised a high proportion of the starches leading to what would be a very unfermentable wort.

 

[booyablack]

You'd want to steep them in the mashing temperature range for a fair while to effectively extract the sugaz, so you'd technically be mashing anyway. Also, the kilning process will have caramelised a high proportion of the starches leading to what would be a very unfermentable wort.

OK, fair enough. So it seems that when you add steeped spec grains to a brew (if you don't add them to the mash) you're really only getting colour, flavour and mouthfeel but not really increasing fermentables.

Cheers Nick. (also you get a gold medal for response time!)

 

[malt_shovel]

Experts,

Is there any reason (other than efficiency) why you couldn't use steeped specialty grains ONLY as your fermentable component of a brew (i.e. no DME, LME or base malts)? You would not need to mash but you would obviously still need to boil.

I've read conflicting data on this forum (and the greater interwebs) but from my understanding the spec grains have been malted and roasted such that the starches have already been converted to sugars which just need to be dissolved in water. This wort would then have all the necessary components for a hops boil and fermentation.

Would this be possible but just ill-advised due to the spec grain taste, colours etc. becoming too overwhelming when used exclusively?

You are correct, the spec grains have been treated during the kilning process such that the starches have already been converted. This is typically done at higher temperatures than would be used for a typical AG mash. This makes the sugars much less fermentable for conventional ale/lager yeast, improving body and mouthfeel. Adding LME / DME ( or mashing some base malt at sach temps) to give a fermenatable wort is required.

You can steep spec malts at any temperature you like. It is advised to do this at temperatures less than 78-80degC, and in solution with pH less than around 6, to reduce the chance of extracting unwanted material from the husks of grains / glucans etc. Includiung the spec malts in the mash gives you these conditions already.

Chees

Edit: Woefully late, got distracted mid-post...

 

[manticle]

You'd want to steep them in the mashing temperature range for a fair while to effectively extract the sugaz, so you'd technically be mashing anyway.

Technically you wouldn't be mashing since you aren't converting starches, regardless of temperature.


@booyablack - crystal malts will add some sugars (much of it less fermentable as suggested). Some other spec malts won't add anything unless mashed with other base malt (malts like biscuit malt for example). Roasted malts have had starches converted but the roasting process won't leave much residual sugar behind so trying to make a stout entirely from black malt (for example) won't yield much of a result.

Where's the conflicting info you have read? I know it's something noobs experimenting with grain have considered often (I did too when I was first playing around) but I've not seen anyone seriously suggest it's a good, effective, workable idea. You might get a super chewy, sweet-ish beer using heaps of steeped crystal but I can't think of any other spec malts that would come close to providing enough sugar to make anything but roasty or starchy soft drink. I've been wrong before though.

 

[Nick JD]

Technically you wouldn't be mashing since you aren't converting starches, regardless of temperature.

You know what I mean. You'd need to basically do a "mash" (60-70C) to extract the sugaz, because too cold and nothing would happen and too ho and you'd be getting arese flavours.

 

[manticle]

I know what you mean and disagree. Mashing is technically different from steeping and cold steeping works effectively but requires more time.

A mash is not temperature - it's conversion which occurs optimally due to temperature and other factors. Not meaning to get too complex in a noob thread but it is incorrect to suggest that a mash and a steep are technically the same as technically they are quite different. Process wise for the brewer they are similar but what happens inside the grain is a different kettle of wort.

 

[Nick JD]

Okay. Fark. I know what saccrification rests are dude.

The most effective way to steep spec malts is to steep them at a temperature of 60-70C for an hour or two.

Steep them warmer and you'll steep tannins.

Steep them cooler and you'll be waiting long enough for the "steep" to go sour.

Steep them cold and you'll be waiting for ******* ever.

So yeah - steep them at "mash" temps for best results. And don't make you beer out of all spec malts no matter what Mantickle says.

 

[bum]

Or just don't do it at all because it's a dumb idea.

[EDIT: typo]

 

[manticle]

Okay. Fark. I know what saccrification rests are dude.

The most effective way to steep spec malts is to steep them at a temperature of 60-70C for an hour or two.

Steep them warmer and you'll steep tannins.

Steep them cooler and you'll be waiting long enough for the "steep" to go sour.

Steep them cold and you'll be waiting for ******* ever.

So yeah - steep them at "mash" temps for best results. And don't make you beer out of all spec malts no matter what Mantickle says.

I know you know. That's why I was surprised to see you say 'technically you will be mashing' as technically is where it differs. Surely you can see the wording is pretty off without getting defensive?

You can steep overnight without getting sour wort though so I'm not sure what you're getting at with all that.

 

[Nick JD]

I know you know. That's why I was surprised to see you say 'technically you will be mashing' as technically is where it differs. Surely you can see the wording is pretty off without getting defensive?

You can steep overnight without getting sour wort though so I'm not sure what you're getting at with all that.

If you steep at 60-70 you might as well throw in some base malt and make a beer worth drinking ... technically.

My grain bag the next day (when I leave it hanging) is well on its way to being sour. Maybe a mash in an eskie might stay warm enough long enough to sour in 2 days.

 

[manticle]

Probably. Different kettle of fish though. Your original sentence could have been better worded to avoid confusion. I know you know what you are talking about but not every new brewer does. It's not the end of the world to try and clarify.

Cold steeping does not need to involve chucking grain in an esky or bag and leaving it in a warm climate overnight (in fact it shouldn't). Crack it, place in a pot with water, glad wrap and place in the fridge.

Drain and add to a mash in the case of partial/AG (then boil) or boil in the case of extract + grains.

We don't really need to argue about this - I'm not trying to take you to task or somesuch.

 

[carniebrew]

On another note, my brother in law was around yesterday, gave him my first homebrew effort that i was proud(ish) of (just an extract). He's a long time homebrew sceptic, but he ended up asking for a carton to take home!

It's really pleasing when that happens, no? We all love how our beer tastes, but rarely think of it as a huge success until others really enjoy it.

You shouldn't need to say "just an extract" though, it sounds like you're talking it down just because you used a malt extract recipe instead of an AG one. As John Palmer himself says in the intro of his How to Brew book: I should mention that Extract Brewing should not be viewed as inferior to brewing with grain, it is merely easier. It takes up less space and uses less equipment. You can brew national competition winning beers using extracts. The reason I moved on to Partial Mashes and then to All-Grain was because brewing is FUN.