Sour Berliner Weisse

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I can vouch for this one too.

Quite drinkable for an infected beer. :D

(Just don't tell the beer judges).

Can't wait to see what Seth puts into the Xmas 06 Case.

Don't forget to keep us updated with your progress Kai.

Cheers,
Thommo.
 
If you have the patience to research back through Craftbrewer Radio. Graham Sanders gives out a website for a place that sells various lacto/sour cultures for the cheese industry.

By all accounts they're many and varied.

Warren -
 
Don't mention the cheese.... I did it once....and...

I would love to have tried this incarnation of the beer. Glad it came together for you Seth.

Brent
 
http://www.cheeselinks.com.au/ sell cultures. I'm reluctant to introduce anything like that in my brewery though, I figure the simple approach is the best the first time around.
 
am i right in remembering moshers radical brewing - something about the culture slowly taking over the entire beer until it's undrinkable? (maybe not the best idea for a storage beer?) and that the results are good from sour malt (like weyermann acidulated) as well as lactic acid. I've only tried the acidulated malt - feed this innocent looking malt to strangers and look at their faces :D
It's pretty freaky stuff.
 
tangent,

I may need to do some more research, but I thought the lacto bugs go to sleep or even die as the alc % goes up.
This means that a low alc beer could become more and more sour with time (and maybe bottle-bombs too?), but a beer that has had a decent brew yeast in it will have enough alcohol to sort out the bacteria.

Maybe there are different strains of lactobacilli that are more or less affected by alcohol, and stay alive at higher alcohol levels. Any lacto experts with concrete advice and links? Pls post

Seth :p
 
I was under the impression that they continue to sour over time too. I know I've had at least one lambic that was impressively sour :)
 
Would write more, but i am off to bed. The culture that is resposible for the majority of lactic acid production in lambic's is slightly different to your average lactobacili. Its called Pediococcus, it will produce very high levels of lactic acid (up to %2 i think) but it can take a few years for it to reach those levels. Not only is it alcohol tollerant but they strain doesn't produce CO2 during its lactic production (unlike its lacto counterparts). Oxidation does it in though it normally dosen't start it crux of its fermentations till 6 (can't remember) months in spontanious fermentation. Certain cultures of this can be found on corn.

I was thinking of trying a few things with in at some point in the future. Mainly was redoing a sour mash of sorts (it also survives up to about 60deg) with corn instead of wheat to provide the culture, and maybe adding the culture at bottling. That or buy some and try something similar.

There is a bit of info on the cultures in Wildbrews, i found it a good starting point.
 
*bump*

One of these babies is definitely on the cards sometime in the new year. Since I'm setting aside a fermenter and a cube for lambics, I think I will go the lactic culture route. I might even have some cheese lactic cultures stashed in my fridge somewhere.

Alternatively, do any of the Adelaideans here know a convenient place to purchase food grade lactic acid? I might consider a (shhh) bulk buy if anyone else is keen on some.
 
*bump*

One of these babies is definitely on the cards sometime in the new year. Since I'm setting aside a fermenter and a cube for lambics, I think I will go the lactic culture route. I might even have some cheese lactic cultures stashed in my fridge somewhere.

Alternatively, do any of the Adelaideans here know a convenient place to purchase food grade lactic acid? I might consider a (shhh) bulk buy if anyone else is keen on some.
I may be able to get my hands on some at a very good price. Give me a couple of days. How much do you need to do a batch?
 
No idea, but I would happily take a litre or more. Never know when it'll come in useful.
 
Oh bugger there you go mentioning the war.

You want to add lactic acid to a beer? Why not grow your own.

Dont worry Seth is on the way home after an extended trip to the pub, I am sure he will see this thread and have a few things to contribute.
You dont have to buy Lactic Acid, malt comes with its own supply, just bio acidify - you will get a better balanced beer
MHB
 
I may try that too at some point. However, if I have the cultures sitting in my fridge then I may as well use them. I still want to try the lactic acid route as it is definitely the simplest method. If I try a couple different ways then I can compare.

Hmm, looks like I've just committed myself to 75 litres or so of Berliner Weisse.
 
Guess what? I missed this post after an arvo with some Newcastle boyz, then I had a quick meal and went over to Stephen's house to meet PistolPatch. Didn't get home 'til after dawn. (Don't worry - I walked home, but got a lift there).

I started with a lacto culture, but I didn't obtain a lot of sourness from it. Initially, I pitched the lacto culture, and put the fermentor in a fridge for 24 hours at 18C, and then pitched the German Ale yeast.
At the end of the ferment, at bottling, I added lactic acid in very small amounts (~1 ml), stirred (gently, to avoid oxidation) and sampled. Add, stir and sample: until the beer tasted balanced. I added about 25 ml total of 90% (prob 88%) lactic acid to my 25 litre batch. But, don't forget, there was already some sourness there from the lactobacillus.

Let your tongue be your guide (in may things, but in this case for the taste of the beer). Brew it to suit your taste and let everyone else adapt. You can't trust a brewer who doesn't brew for his own taste.

The recipe contained 10% Weyermann acidulated malt, 60% pils malt, 30% JW wheat malt. (Oz wheat malt works well).

I've read that adding lactic acid requires some time to integrate the acidity into the beer, and I found that with my Berlinisch weissbier. Bottled in June, and won Best of Show in the NSW State comp on 21 Oct.

You may need to brew a lot of mighty big batches b4 you use a whole litre of lactic acid. Good fun to try though!

To save Darren posting this info: a warning (from an an old Eastern Suburb Brewmaker web site)-
"Be very careful when handling acids, and try to avoid contact with the skin. You should wear gloves and eye protection when handling such dangerous compounds. "

Seth out
 
Thanks for the advice, seth. I just peeked in my beer fridge and I already have enough lacto cultures to kick-start 500L of milk, so at some point soon I need to try and work out roughly how far that will take me in the white jelly donut world.
 
Thanks for the advice, seth. I just peeked in my beer fridge and I already have enough lacto cultures to kick-start 500L of milk, so at some point soon I need to try and work out roughly how far that will take me in the white jelly donut world.
Are any of your cultures L. delbruekii, as that's the appropriate strain?

If not you can quickly culture some by making a boiled DME starter and adding a handful of uncrushed malted grain when the starter has cooled to 50 C. Simple, yet effective, esp if you have a thermos. 3 days later, you can upsize your culture. Stinky sour beers, here we come...

Seth :p
 
making my first berliner today - was inspired by some of the microscoping stirplating freaks on babblebelt to do one with brett anomalus. will also chuck in some natural yoghurt for good measure. 1028, 50% pils 50% wheat , 4 IBUs of spalt boiled for 10 mins. will let you know if it's drinkable by winter or so. or whether it needs green cordial.
 
Yep, it's time again soon for another sour wheat beer for me.

This time, I plan a larger lacto culture, coz a sour mash is not true to style.

Neon-m, the recipe looks good, although the W1028 may give you slightly uncharacteristic flavours if fermented warm. A neutral yeast is prob best. I use Wyeast German Ale with mine.
The grain bill for one of these is ridiculously cheap, as it's basically 3kg of gain and bugger-all hops, in a 25 litre batch.

Pls let us all know how it goes, and what you feel the Brett adds.

*(edited for measurement changes/ accuracy)*
Beerz
Seth :p
 
Finally brewing the beer next Saturday
A copy of my post in the IBU's Forum

Well back into real brewing
This beer will sort me out and its about 3%
Not much in it but a big brew day of things i have not yet tried

My Berliner Weisse
Here is the recipe

Berliner Weisse
17-A Berliner Weisse

Size: 19.2 L
Efficiency: 65.0%
Attenuation: 81.0%
Calories: 99.28 per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.030 (1.028 - 1.032)
Terminal Gravity: 1.006 (1.004 - 1.006)
Color: 2.6 (2.0 - 3.0)
Alcohol: 3.21% (2.8% - 3.6%)
Bitterness: 6.34 (3.0 - 8.0)

Ingredients:
1.4 kg JWM Export Pilsner
1.4 kg JWM Wheat Malt
0.5 kg Weyermann Acidulated
18.0 g Tettnanger Tettnang (4.7%) - FWH
20.0 oz Whirflock - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1.0 ea White Labs WLP011 European Ale
1 ea Untitled Yeast
1 ea WYeast 4335 Lactobacillus Delbrueckii

Schedule:

Notes:
Hops FWH
10g Added Gypsum at Run Off
Wyeast 4335 Lactobacillus Delbruckii added to the starter on Brew Day
Bottled in Champagne Bottles
Mash in at 38C with 10 L of water, hold for 2 hours
Add near boiling water to take the mash up to 50C for 30 minutes
Add near boiling water to take the mash up to 64C for 1 hour
Add near boilong water to take the mash up to 77C for 15 minutes
Check gravity is around 1.030
Boil the Wort for 20 minutes
Let the wort rest for 15 minutes.
Collect 2 litres of wort for krausen for bottle conditioning
Re-Boil this to make sure its sterile and seal in a plastic container, When cool freeze till bottling day.
Rack wort to a sterilised 20 L drum and keep till Starter is ready for Fermentation day
Ferment at 18C for 4 days
Rack to secondary at 10C for 3 days.
Rack Again for bottling.

Warm up the krausen and add to the second secondary
Mix and bottle as normal.
Lager the bottles at 16C for 2 weeks
Then lager at 10C for 3 months

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