Single Vessel Electric Brew Rig Build

[bignath]

Hi Big Nath,

I'm after some advice from The Master, if that's o.k?

At the stage of deciding what Thermometer I should go with. Can't decide between a weldless one like this:

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4326

or an inline one between the outlet of the recirc pump & the wort return pipe, like this one:

http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/thermo...ial-thermometer


what are your thoughts?

'the master'.....?? Haha, the compliment is nice mate, but trust me.....I'm a f#%^*+g long way from a title like that...

Either will be good thermo's but I didn't want to mount it in line due to adding weight to the wort return line (silicone).

If you click on the Ibrew link you added, the thermo on the top left page that opens up is the one that's in my wort return path underneath the vessel. Only I grabbed mine from Beerbelly. But I suppose for the money, if the inline one comes with the fittings shown, then if your only going to put it inline, I'd probably go that one. That way, it gives you options by using the supplied fittings or not.

I have a longer stem one as well but that's installed in my esky mash tun for my 3V rig.

Good thermos in my experience.

 

[breakbeer]

Cheers mate, I've decided to go with the weldless one coz that way I can always see the temperature of what's in the kettle. Instead of only seeing the temperature when the wort return pump is on

I seriously under-estimated the amount of plumbing bits n pieces involved, even after seeing your finished set up. My decision to use all stainless fittings will be the death of me

I just received my barbed elbow which will be fitted to the lid & wort return pipe. Other fittings I've bought have a 1/2" barb but I didn't realise the elbow only had a 3/8" barb. I hope the 12.5mm silicone hose I bought fits alright with a hose clamp

 

[mark0]

hey BigNath, what crush grain size are you using? my BIAB crush got very, very stuck.

i am thinking of a upwards circulation (a la braumeister) so the grain falls back through the wort with gravity or at least i can turn the pump of and break up any grain bed easier.

 

[bignath]

hey BigNath, what crush grain size are you using? my BIAB crush got very, very stuck.

i am thinking of a upwards circulation (a la braumeister) so the grain falls back through the wort with gravity or at least i can turn the pump of and break up any grain bed easier.

Hey man, I'm not 100% sure, but am reasonably confident that my gap setting is 1mm. Could be 1.1mm....Am going to experiment with a finer crush to chase some efficiency points.
Either way, not small enough to be a problem. One of the benefits of a biab process is that you can stir the mash as often as you like and apply heat easily if required. Not really an option on a typical esky mash tun as you don't want to disturb the grain bed, but in biab, any recirc benefits gained are just gonna get stirred back up when you pull the bag anyway.

With my specific design, I think the important thing is to throttle back the pump outlet so it doesn't suck down too hard. Particularly on big grain bills due to the grain being contained by the bag in a crab cooker insert. The bigger the grain bill, it gives the effect of a thicker mash.

 

[LRJ]

Hi BigNath and all,

I see you have two 2.2kW elements. How are these powered? E.g. is one powered through the STC-1000, and the other manually operated direct to its own power source?

From a conversation last night, I gather that most home circuit breakers are set to trip at 20A. Being a 240V supply, that effectively means a max of 4.8kW at any one time. Each powerpoint I believe is only rated to 10A, so a max draw of 2.4kW.

Can anyone confirm this to be correct to their knowledge? Does this mean that running two 2.2kW elements from seperate powerpoints is ok, but if someone in the kitchen boils a kettle then the whole house trips?

What are some of the better ways that people have found to get a fair amount of wattage into their vessel (e.g. two 2.2kW elements) and yet have a fair degree of thermostat controlled automation, and little chance of tripping things out?

Any comments on this would really be appreciated, and if there is already a thread answering these issues, a linky link would be mighty handy.

Cheers,


Liam

 

[bignath]

Hi BigNath and all,

I see you have two 2.2kW elements. How are these powered? E.g. is one powered through the STC-1000, and the other manually operated direct to its own power source?

From a conversation last night, I gather that most home circuit breakers are set to trip at 20A. Being a 240V supply, that effectively means a max of 4.8kW at any one time. Each powerpoint I believe is only rated to 10A, so a max draw of 2.4kW.

Can anyone confirm this to be correct to their knowledge? Does this mean that running two 2.2kW elements from seperate powerpoints is ok, but if someone in the kitchen boils a kettle then the whole house trips?

What are some of the better ways that people have found to get a fair amount of wattage into their vessel (e.g. two 2.2kW elements) and yet have a fair degree of thermostat controlled automation, and little chance of tripping things out?

Any comments on this would really be appreciated, and if there is already a thread answering these issues, a linky link would be mighty handy.

Cheers,


Liam

you are on the right track Liam....whilst i don't know a whole lot about electrical circuits, and therefore your technical wording may or may not be correct, i would say that you are heading in the right direction. But i wouldn't suggest it's a powerpoint issue like you mention in your first paragraph. More of a circuit thing, as you can have many powerpoints hooked up to a circuit.

I am not sure if this is standard, but my kitchen is on a separate circuit by the looks of it, my laundry is on another one, but seems to be on the same one as a spare bedroom and lounge room etc...Outside lighting is on another altogether, and separate from outside power.

My setup is running a four way powerboard off of one outdoor power point. this powerboard runs the stc controller, a little brown pump, and a laptop for brewday. Leaving one spare outlet on the board. The stc controller runs one of the elements in the kettle.

The second element, is run off of a separate power source. I discovered that the outside power point that my water softener uses, is a separate line from the one that my patio flouro lighting is plugged into. So i unplug my flouro light, and plug in an extension cord to run my drill for the mill, and then later when i'm boiling i use it for the second element.

Hope this makes sense....

also, for those that are following the brewing process on my rig....

I brewed a double batch of my Citra Ale on Tuesday night. I mashed in with just under 44lt's with 8.08kg grain bill in the 55lt pot. Pushing the maximum limits of my rig with that one. I prepared 10lt of water in my small urn as i was planning on using this for sparge water.
End of the mash, i hoisted the bucket and bag arrangement let it drain, both elements on, and in 2lt increments sparged with the 10lt's i prepared. Landed on my preboil volume, and upon taking my refractometer readings, realised that i'd landed on 85% efficiency. At the end of the brewday, OG and volume suggest i've hit 82.3%efficiency. Which i know is not breathtaking, but it is exactly what i was getting on my 3V rig, so i'm pretty chuffed with that. Means i shouldn't really have to alter my recipes for my rigs. The first two or three brews on this new rig have netted me low 70% so im rapt to have started working out my rig to get it back to where my recipes should be.

Only problem is one of the elements started cutting out raising from the mash out to the boil. I ended up using my handheld immersion element instead, and the other element during the boil. No big problem but i'd love to work out what is going on. It's always the element that is used in the mash that has problems with the boil.

Am starting to think that i will not heat the mash at all, and just kill the power during the mash. I spent yesterday home with a sick daughter, and whilst she was sleeping, i started to insulate the vessel with some camping mat in an attempt to hold temp better so i don't need to use the element during the mash. Then i should be right to crank them both up for the boil.

At least i didn't blow the element this time. I have that problem sorted at least....

The journey continues.

 

[Jay Cee]

Hi Big Nath, I'm coming in a bit late, but awesome work. I'm in the early stages of doing something very similar, although inlet & outlet configurations will differ.

A few things I like about your design are the feet on the crab colander, the dual outlet for filling two cubes and the fact that it looks so tidy with your wort out being at the base.

Well done.

 

[bignath]

Hi Big Nath, I'm coming in a bit late, but awesome work. I'm in the early stages of doing something very similar, although inlet & outlet configurations will differ.

A few things I like about your design are the feet on the crab colander, the dual outlet for filling two cubes and the fact that it looks so tidy with your wort out being at the base.

Well done.

thanks mate, i've actually built another rig that's somewhat simplified since i finished the one at the start of the thread.
I bought a bigger pot, with a bigger crab cooker insert, but the basic principle is the same.

Only one tap in it, and i recirculate, fill, and drain from the one ball valve. Only 1 element installed in the new rig and using a handheld immersion as the second element.
I've also done away with the dial thermometer in the recirculation line. Not necessary.
Have installed some inline valves in the recirculation line and now the rig works well, and is much more simpler. It's flat bottomed too, now that i've got rid of the bottom draining valve. The only thing i think i may add now, is a bazooka screen to the outlet to try and increase my post boil volume. At the moment i'm having to leave behind maybe 3lt's post boil, as due to the element, the vessel doesn't really create a whirlpool which is disappointing. My 50lt kegs in my 3V rig were awesome at doing that.

Oh well, the learning and expansion continues...

will post some pics of the new rig, or even create a new thread when i get some spare time, as this newer version is considerably better and more thought through than the first rig.

Cheers

Nath

 

[mkstalen]

Very cool build, something I'm hoping to replicate soon.

I've just got a couple of questions which I'm hoping people with chemistry and other build knowledge may be able to assist with.

I've already got an aluminium pot which I've used as a standard BIAB pot for a while. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be used in this build?
Any reasons why you shouldn't mix aluminium and ss stuff in a build like this?
I've also seen some of the Bucket-o-death builds and was thinking of using a bucket with drilled holes rather than fork out for an expensive strainer. Again any reason why I should steer clear of this?
Did you have any issues properly sealing the element through the side wall of the pot? Wall being curved element fitting being flat?
Also just watched the video. How do you sparge with this setup? Just hoist the strainer and pour the sparge water straight over and let drain back into the wort pot? Or is there some other process?
And finally, is there any benefit to the thermowell you're using rather than just screwing in a stainless temp probe like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390445511141


I'm looking forward to having a go at this.

 

[bignath]

I've also seen some of the Bucket-o-death builds and was thinking of using a bucket with drilled holes rather than fork out for an expensive strainer. Again any reason why I should steer clear of this?

Have left the more chemically based questions you've posed to more qualified brewers to answer as i don't know....

But in regards to using a bucket.....it'd want to be a very rigid type of plastic as the heat from the mash process, combined with the lesser structural sturdiness due to the holes, would mean that the bucket stands a very good chance of collapsing when you pull it out post-mash. I wouldn't do it.

Did you have any issues properly sealing the element through the side wall of the pot? Wall being curved element fitting being flat?
Also just watched the video. How do you sparge with this setup? Just hoist the strainer and pour the sparge water straight over and let drain back into the wort pot? Or is there some other process?
And finally, is there any benefit to the thermowell you're using rather than just screwing in a stainless temp probe like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390445511141

No problem putting the element in the side of the pot. Being aluminium (my second rig), you can gently tap the mounting area into a flat surface if you like, but i haven't bothered and i have zero leaks.

You're correct about the sparge process. Hoist the bucket, let it drain, give it a stir with my paddle to loosen it up, pour sparge water through the hanging bucket of grain, let it drain into the pot. This is done whilst the second element is on, and approaching the boil.

Regarding the temp probe....
Provided 1.- That probe will work with an STC1000 controller and 2.- The probe reaches down into the bottom of the grain bed, it should be fine.
My thermowell (copper tube with stc probe sitting right down into the bottom of it) has been constructed to place the probe right in the middle of the mash when the lid is on. Not sure how long that probe you linked to is......

stc compatibility in a build like mine is important as it obviously controls the temp of the entire rig.

Let us know how your rig turns out when she's done!

Cheers, Nath

 

[aaronpetersen]

Very cool build, something I'm hoping to replicate soon.

I've just got a couple of questions which I'm hoping people with chemistry and other build knowledge may be able to assist with.

I've already got an aluminium pot which I've used as a standard BIAB pot for a while. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be used in this build?
Any reasons why you shouldn't mix aluminium and ss stuff in a build like this?
I've also seen some of the Bucket-o-death builds and was thinking of using a bucket with drilled holes rather than fork out for an expensive strainer. Again any reason why I should steer clear of this?
Did you have any issues properly sealing the element through the side wall of the pot? Wall being curved element fitting being flat?
Also just watched the video. How do you sparge with this setup? Just hoist the strainer and pour the sparge water straight over and let drain back into the wort pot? Or is there some other process?
And finally, is there any benefit to the thermowell you're using rather than just screwing in a stainless temp probe like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390445511141


I'm looking forward to having a go at this.

If you mix aluminium and stainless you will get galvanic corrosion of the aluminium. The severity of the corrosion will depend on how much stainless there is relative to the amount of aluminium you have. BUT, if you isolate the stainless from the aluminium, i.e. there is no physical contact between them, then galvanic corrosion won't occur. I have an aluminium BIAB pot with stainless fittings so I just made sure to use silicon washers and lots of thread tape wherever the stainless goes through the pot to make sure the two metals aren't in contact.

 

[Beerisyummy]

Hi BN,

I've been looking at your rig and more importantly the kettle elements. Have you added thermal paste between the emergency cutout switch and the pot? After reading about your troubles with the element used in the mash I figured this may have something to do with it.

I pulled one of my old worksite kettles apart today and they all seem to use the same component made under licence by Strix. There are two little bimetal disks that have a different expansion coefficient on each side which cut the power and act as a thermostat.
The top one is attached to the on/off switch and the second one is between the inner and outer components. The one between the inner and outer parts seems to be set to trip at a temperature well above boiling and needs some sort of thermal paste to function correctly and stop the element from burning out.

I might be preaching to the converted here but I have a habit of pulling things apart andthought it was worth posting incase you hadn't noticed yet. Might save you another $7 for a kettle.

PS. After playing around a little more it seems the emergency cut out only allows the power to come back on once the temp drops to around the 45c mark. That would explain why one is cutting out and not coming back on. Maybe it's the opposite to thermal paste that's needed. I'd say you can disable the switch pretty easily but that would be asking for trouble.

 

[bignath]

Hi BN,

I've been looking at your rig and more importantly the kettle elements. Have you added thermal paste between the emergency cutout switch and the pot? After reading about your troubles with the element used in the mash I figured this may have something to do with it.

I pulled one of my old worksite kettles apart today and they all seem to use the same component made under licence by Strix. There are two little bimetal disks that have a different expansion coefficient on each side which cut the power and act as a thermostat.
The top one is attached to the on/off switch and the second one is between the inner and outer components. The one between the inner and outer parts seems to be set to trip at a temperature well above boiling and needs some sort of thermal paste to function correctly and stop the element from burning out.

I might be preaching to the converted here but I have a habit of pulling things apart andthought it was worth posting incase you hadn't noticed yet. Might save you another $7 for a kettle.

Hi mate, cheers for the thought....

have only had one element blow, was a long time ago now (early May this year).

Here's what the element looked like:



No problems since i started throttling back the pump. I have changed pots and crab cooker insert to larger ones since that build and haven't had a problem. I'm currently building a PID controlled BIAB rig. Wiring up the enclosure right now actually, should be ready in a couple of weeks (waiting on a couple of parts from Jaycar).

I am pretty confident that the original element blew up due to my sucking the vessel dry faster than it could return (judging by the very linear damage to the element. Looks to me like a "waterline" type thing.

Will look into the thermal paste, but i'm also considering changing elements to the u-bend it ones that QldKev has used since moving away from the KK ones, when i upgrade the pot for this V3.0 rig. For the time being im just gonna use the pot from the second version which no ones seen as i haven't taken any action shots, and then upgrade it sometime this year once i trial out the PID enclosure i'm building.


Cheers,

Nath

 

[Beerisyummy]

Hi mate, cheers for the thought....

have only had one element blow, was a long time ago now (early May this year).

Here's what the element looked like:

View attachment 59358

No problems since i started throttling back the pump. I have changed pots and crab cooker insert to larger ones since that build and haven't had a problem. I'm currently building a PID controlled BIAB rig. Wiring up the enclosure right now actually, should be ready in a couple of weeks (waiting on a couple of parts from Jaycar).

I am pretty confident that the original element blew up due to my sucking the vessel dry faster than it could return (judging by the very linear damage to the element. Looks to me like a "waterline" type thing.

Will look into the thermal paste, but i'm also considering changing elements to the u-bend it ones that QldKev has used since moving away from the KK ones, when i upgrade the pot for this V3.0 rig. For the time being im just gonna use the pot from the second version which no ones seen as i haven't taken any action shots, and then upgrade it sometime this year once i trial out the PID enclosure i'm building.


Cheers,

Nath

Can't wait to see the new build once you finish. It sounds like a ripper DIY project.

The picture explains why it blew. The water line shows the level of fluid when it blew. A pretty neat shot really.

The elements are designed to work horizontally with the main part of the element below the water level up until the last minute in a boil dry scenario. If you turn them on without any liquid they trip pretty quickly.

With yours mounted vertically the top part has overheated and burned out while the emergency cutout was being kept cool by the wort at the base. I guess that's a good case for mounting them the right way up.

The thermal paste that I was talking about doesn't seem to make much of a difference to the cutout time after I played with the switching unit a little more. There is definately some smeared inside the parts when you pull them apart but I can't tell the difference with or without. You probably don't really need it.

Did you use an extra washer to pad out the thickness of the pot? I noticed that the silicone washer is designed to be used on something with a two to three mm wall thickness.


Cheers

Ross.

 

[Beerisyummy]

Hi All,

I answered my last question by drilling out a pot and installing the element. The correct size hole saw to use is a 38mm Bimetal jobby and the silicone washer does need an extra buffer installed on the outside of the pot. If you have the tools you can just drill out a flatish part of the kettle with a 51mm hole saw then use the 38mm hole saw on the cutout. It makes a perfect washer for pulling the whole thing tight with no leaks.

Sorry for the slight hijack BN. I thought it might help those trying to copy your design.

 

[bignath]

Hi All,

I answered my last question by drilling out a pot and installing the element. The correct size hole saw to use is a 38mm Bimetal jobby and the silicone washer does need an extra buffer installed on the outside of the pot. If you have the tools you can just drill out a flatish part of the kettle with a 51mm hole saw then use the 38mm hole saw on the cutout. It makes a perfect washer for pulling the whole thing tight with no leaks.

Sorry for the slight hijack BN. I thought it might help those trying to copy your design.

no worries about the hijack mate, is a good idea to add your findings.

I haven't had to pad up the silicone washer. My pot must be a tad thicker walled, never had a leak in that pot. My aluminium 60lt (V2.0) is even thicker again, and the element is wall mounted as opposed to mounted upright in the base. No problems once again with leaks.

But, another washer is good insurance that's for sure. Just 'cause mine didn't leak, doesn't mean someone else's might not, and i hate to have someone fry themselves by copying my design and not checking for leaks first.

Always a good idea that one!

 

[kahlerisms]

Hey Big Nath,

Just came across this topic today - I'm looking to add some automation to my BIAB days and this looks pretty good. At the moment I'm using a 50L keg with a horizontally mounted KegKing element in it and it's forcing me to increase my pre-boil volume because I lose so much space at the bottom with my element and shield.

Would love to read your build thread, especially on how a couple of $9 elements manage to heat 50L! Unfortunately with the new forum theme the link isn't working. Mind updating your sig or posting the link?

Cheers.

 

[bignath]

Hi mate, the $9 elements do a good job of boiling 50lt if you use two of them. I no longer use them, as since this thread was started, I have upgraded my rig A LOT.

There will be a build thread for the new rig soon. Just waiting on some elements from uxcell, and then setting up the dual return system on the pot. Will post back soon!

 

[breakbeer]

Would love to see pics of the new build Nath, I'm about to make a couple of adjustments to mine too. Dual wort return being one of them.

Think I'll upgrade from the little brown pump to a Kaixin & have a t-piece on the outlet, one to the wall of the pot between the two elements & the other going to a ball valve (for throttling) & then through the lid into the mash

 

[breakbeer]

Just finished my dual wort return & I'm stoked, works a bloody treat! No need for the dimmer anymore either.

I have a ball valve in the bottom & one in the front, I just added a T piece to the pump outlet & ran one tube to the front ball valve & the other to the lid. If I need to throttle back the return to the lid I just open up the ball valve to increase the flow to under the malt pipe.