Should I Be Using Additional Mashrests For All Grain?

[dalpets]

Hi everyone,

I've read a little bit in my brief travels in home brewing about mash rests. Most seem to talk about the rests you don't need any more because of advanced grain technology, but I can't seem to find any good information that tells me if I should be considering the use of at least some rests in addition to the Saccharification Rest for all grain.

Your views would be appreciated.

 

[raven19]

I went with some lower stepped temperatures in the recent Irish Red challenge - purely due to the high spec/roast malt component of the grist (which was fixed as part of the challenge).

I also now tend to mash in a tad lower then use the RIMS to hit the temps within say 10 minutes usually.

In saying the above, I am still tweaking the RIMS so cant comment too much yet on the effectiveness of the above!

However most malts nowadays don't really need a lower temp rest - but it won't hurt the beer either.

2c.

 

[np1962]

There was a thread on here a week or so back and I have had a couple of discussions recently with local brewers and the concensus is that while lower temp rests are not necessary in most cases a short, 5 or so minute, rest at about 55C can be helpful with head formation and retention.
I don't bother usually.
Nige

 

[manticle]

Hi everyone,

I've read a little bit in my brief travels in home brewing about mash rests. Most seem to talk about the rests you don't need any more because of advanced grain technology, but I can't seem to find any good information that tells me if I should be considering the use of at least some rests in addition to the Saccharification Rest for all grain.

Your views would be appreciated.

Depends what you are brewing. If you are brewing a hefe I have found a ferulic acid rest and a high end protein rest add to the beer. From memory the ferulic rest will help push clove so if you don't like clovey weizens then maybe it's better avoided.

I also like to do a short 55 degree protein rest when making German styles using German malts. None of them are necessary to making beer but I like what I believe to be the impact. More than that though I like the effect of mashing low for part of the sacch rest, then mashing high. I find it gives good body and maltiness but won't underattenuate or end up too sweet - you'll still get a dry result.

In summary - not necessary but can be noticeable and it's up to you to give it a shot and see if the stuffing around is worth it. I'm a fan of techniques at least once (I have many more to go).

 

[dalpets]

Depends what you are brewing. If you are brewing a hefe I have found a ferulic acid rest and a high end protein rest add to the beer. From memory the ferulic rest will help push clove so if you don't like clovey weizens then maybe it's better avoided.

I also like to do a short 55 degree protein rest when making German styles using German malts. None of them are necessary to making beer but I like what I believe to be the impact. More than that though I like the effect of mashing low for part of the sacch rest, then mashing high. I find it gives good body and maltiness but won't underattenuate or end up too sweet - you'll still get a dry result.

In summary - not necessary but can be noticeable and it's up to you to give it a shot and see if the stuffing around is worth it. I'm a fan of techniques at least once (I have many more to go).

How is the 55*C rest incorporated into the mashing regime?. Let me explain myself.
At this point in my knowledge bank I am only familiar with bringing the strike water to the desired sacc temp. In my case then, going from 55C to the sacc temp would probably take in the order of 10mins or so with the PID controlled heat exchanger setup. Would this time lag adversely affect the overall mashing-in routine. Also with the 55C rest when would I then measure my wort pH (presumably still at the sacc temp) for any necessary adjustment.

What would you call a "short rest"-5mins?. Would this rest be worth a try, do you think, with my upcoming OSH brew?

Thanks & cheers
dalpets

 

[manticle]

For English beer, I would follow English methods first. Once you have them down pat and wish to experiement, then I would mix it up if you want.

UK methods as far as I know are single infusion, batch sparge. Partigyle is good if you want to get three beers from one mash but maybe save that for later.

Mash high 60s but mash long (maybe 70-90 minutes) which in my experience gives a vaguely similar effect to the stepped sacch rest. I wouldn't rest at 55 for a UK beer.

However, no harm done by going from one temp up to another. What you are doing is activating particular enzymes responsible for particular reactions. You cannot go high then low because you will denature the enzymes in the lower range.

Once again - check the all grain section in Palmer which will explain the basics better than I can.

Short rest - 5-15 mins. You could always start ramping at 5 mins to slowly build to the sacch rest too.

 

[dalpets]

For English beer, I would follow English methods first. Once you have them down pat and wish to experiement, then I would mix it up if you want.

UK methods as far as I know are single infusion, batch sparge. Partigyle is good if you want to get three beers from one mash but maybe save that for later.

Mash high 60s but mash long (maybe 70-90 minutes) which in my experience gives a vaguely similar effect to the stepped sacch rest. I wouldn't rest at 55 for a UK beer.

However, no harm done by going from one temp up to another. What you are doing is activating particular enzymes responsible for particular reactions. You cannot go high then low because you will denature the enzymes in the lower range.

Once again - check the all grain section in Palmer which will explain the basics better than I can.

Short rest - 5-15 mins. You could always start ramping at 5 mins to slowly build to the sacch rest too.

Thanks for that. But what about the ph testing with the 55C rest scenario. Would taking it at the rest temp give any different result than at the sacc temp. In other words is the pH test temperature dependant?.

 

[bum]

Dalpets, you're making this harder than it needs to be. Yes, by all means all these things you're wondering about can be done from the first brew but I think it would be of vital importance for you to not do them yet. Do a simple single temp infusion mash for the first brew and see what you wanna play with from there. I promise you the beer will be good and there will be more than enough to play with on the day.

 

[dalpets]

Dalpets, you're making this harder than it needs to be. Yes, by all means all these things you're wondering about can be done from the first brew but I think it would be of vital importance for you to not do them yet. Do a simple single temp infusion mash for the first brew and see what you wanna play with from there. I promise you the beer will be good and there will be more than enough to play with on the day.

I won't be doing a rest for the OSH as per Manticle's recommendation (it shouldn't be hard to do, in any event) but this is just a question I would like an answer to instead of coming back for a second bite of the cherry in the medium term.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[bum]

Take as many bites as you like. We all do or did at one point. That's what the board is for. What is more important here, I think, is that you have a firm plan for what you want to do on the day. No matter how well prepared you are there will be something you'll fluff up to some extent. The beer will still be good but consider focusing on the fundamental steps at first - even if only for one beer.

 

[Cocko]

I like to have a rest after mash in, Usually just sit and maybe read or crank some tunes..., for about 20 minutes.

Then go in for a stir and then basically rest for another 40 minutes or so, back to the recliner, book or tunes or similar... then into sparging etc...

IMO, you can't be too rested for the rest of brew day, the hop additions are quite strenuous.

Hope it helps!

 

[Nevalicious]

I like to have a rest after mash in, Usually just sit and maybe read or crank some tunes..., for about 20 minutes.

Then go in for a stir and then basically rest for another 40 minutes or so, back to the recliner, book or tunes or similar... then into sparging etc...

IMO, you can't be too rested for the rest of brew day, the hop additions are quite strenuous.

Hope it helps!

:lol:

 

[Hatchy]

Is this yr 1st AG batch? If it is then:

Dalpets, you're making this harder than it needs to be. Yes, by all means all these things you're wondering about can be done from the first brew but I think it would be of vital importance for you to not do them yet. Do a simple single temp infusion mash for the first brew and see what you wanna play with from there. I promise you the beer will be good and there will be more than enough to play with on the day.

If you've been brewing AG for a while & feel the need to look at different rests then go for it if yr set up for it. I haven't bothered with multiple rests or a mash out so far. Single infusion, batch sparge, ferment, enjoy. I'm sure I'll brew better beers once I understand processes & resulting benefits better but to start off there's a lot to be said for keeping it simple.

What Cocko said is valid as well. A well rested brewer = good beer.

 

[mje1980]

You don't need to do additional rests. If you wanna play around try them, but they are not needed.

 

[manticle]

Thanks for that. But what about the ph testing with the 55C rest scenario. Would taking it at the rest temp give any different result than at the sacc temp. In other words is the pH test temperature dependant?.

As far as I know you will need to calibrate your pH reading for temperature (if that's what you mean). Besides the little I know about water chemistry that I've already told you, I'm not the right guy to ask.

I add a small amount of brewing salts to my brews, mainly to enhance hop and malt profile and to up calcium levels for yeast health. My additions are standard and based around appropriate additions for medium coloured beers. Paler coloured beers sometimes get a touch of acid but I rarely measure the pH.

I have done it with strips after mash in and also at the end of the mash and the results have been acceptable but there will be other people who measure much more accurately than I.

Are you reading elsewhere besides asking here? I'm sure brewing texts will be more useful in this regard. How will you be measuring pH and how will you be adjusting it?

Also how will you be ramping between each mash step?

 

[Tony]

I use temperature steps in almost every brew i make. The beer im making determines what temps and for how long they sit at said temps.

Eg. Today im making a saison. It want to attenuate a LOT so i want a short protein rest to break things down and make the cool mash easier. Problem with mashing down around 62 to 63 is you may not convert all the starches so well, so i mash for 45 to 60 min and infuse up to 71 for a dry Beta rest to finnish off the mash. I mash out at this temp.

its easy to do...... all you need is your mash tuns thermal mass and promash will work it out for you.

I mash in at 2L/kg for a 52 deg rest. Before i mash in, i have my first infusion water addition coming to the boil so its ready when the 10 min protein rest is done.

I add the volume of boiling water as calculated by promash to hit my sac rest and stir it in very fast. This usually has me at the 3L/kg volume.

when the sac rest is done i tip in the amount of boiling water to get me up to 71 deg and stir it in. This will usually fill my mash tun to the top at a bit over 4L/kg. I recirc through the HERMS to clear it for 10 or 15 min then pump it to the kettle.

Sparge as normal.

As for pH...... yes temperature will change it, but if you have a decent digital tester it should have ATC (automatic temp compensation) but for all intents and purposes..... it only changed a fraction of a ph point between say 50 and 70 deg where you will be mashing.

cheers

 

[dalpets]

I use temperature steps in almost every brew i make. The beer im making determines what temps and for how long
they sit at said temps.

Eg. Today im making a saison. It want to attenuate a LOT so i want a short protein rest to break things down and make the cool mash easier. Problem with mashing down around 62 to 63 is you may not convert all the starches so well, so i mash for 45 to 60 min and infuse up to 71 for a dry Beta rest to finnish off the mash. I mash out at this temp.

its easy to do...... all you need is your mash tuns thermal mass and promash will work it out for you.

I mash in at 2L/kg for a 52 deg rest. Before i mash in, i have my first infusion water addition coming to the boil so its ready when the 10 min protein rest is done.

I add the volume of boiling water as calculated by promash to hit my sac rest and stir it in very fast. This usually has me at the 3L/kg volume.

when the sac rest is done i tip in the amount of boiling water to get me up to 71 deg and stir it in. This will usually fill my mash tun to the top at a bit over 4L/kg. I recirc through the HERMS to clear it for 10 or 15 min then pump it to the kettle.

Sparge as normal.

As for pH...... yes temperature will change it, but if you have a decent digital tester it should have ATC (automatic temp compensation) but for all intents and purposes..... it only changed a fraction of a ph point between say 50 and 70 deg where you will be mashing.

cheers

Thank you, Tony, for your very insightful comments.

Cheers
dalpets

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The thing with Tony's post - is that he has a reason for each and every step he does. And thats the way it should be. In general, most nice modern malts dont need a step mash of any description for you to be able to make fine beer with them. The only reason to do step mashes - is if you have an active reason to do step mashes.

You need to have thought of something you want to achieve, then worked out that the way to achieve that "thing" is via a step mash. So the question isn't whether in general you should or shouldn't do step mashes - but whether you do or dont want to get something out of your mash, that requires you to do one.