Rookie Mistake - Dry Hopping With Por

[Spiesy]

...dry hoping late really is asking for trouble.

Why is that?

If it's infection you're implying, wouldn't the beer be blanketed in CO2? And as long as the hops have been strerilised, there shouldn't really be an issue should there?

Or is it an increased grassy aroma that you're implying?

 

[MHB]

Something I noticed, beer that has gone through a hopback can be very aromatic but I have never found one to be Grassy even when chock full of hops that are notorious for throwing grassy aromas.
So after a bit of experimentation, have found that beers with the hops added early i.e. before the yeast tend not to be grassy, the same beer (a split brew) hopped later reeked of couch.
I believe that the aromatics responsible for grassiness are stripped out during the early vigorous fermentation and that there is plenty of left over hop aroma in the finished beer.
Adding hops late (say past of ferment) almost guarantees some grassy and other vegetal notes or is as in previous post is asking for trouble.

It would be a very rare thing for me to have an Ale on the yeast for more than 7 days if primary isnt over in 3 days I would be worried, Lagers I tend not to be dry hopping and my most brewed lager (Budvar) only gets bittering hops, for mine Lager is all about cleanness and late hops get in the way of where Im interested in taking Lager at this time.
Mark

 

[manticle]

Something I noticed, beer that has gone through a hopback can be very aromatic but I have never found one to be Grassy even when chock full of hops that are notorious for throwing grassy aromas.
So after a bit of experimentation, have found that beers with the hops added early i.e. before the yeast tend not to be grassy, the same beer (a split brew) hopped later reeked of couch.
I believe that the aromatics responsible for grassiness are stripped out during the early vigorous fermentation and that there is plenty of left over hop aroma in the finished beer.
Adding hops late (say past of ferment) almost guarantees some grassy and other vegetal notes or is as in previous post is asking for trouble.

It would be a very rare thing for me to have an Ale on the yeast for more than 7 days if primary isnt over in 3 days I would be worried, Lagers I tend not to be dry hopping and my most brewed lager (Budvar) only gets bittering hops, for mine Lager is all about cleanness and late hops get in the way of where Im interested in taking Lager at this time.
Mark

I dry hop, at gentle rates, in CC after FG and notice neither grass, nor trouble of any kind.

I think grass comes more from wrong/inappropriate hops (only time I noticed it was stupidly dry hopping with saaz), overly long dry hop period (I usually aim for around 2-3 days) and overdoing the amounts (I rarely exceed 1g/L) but I guess everybody's palate and experience is different.

 

[bum]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there are select styles where some grassiness is appropriate. Sometimes even desirable.

Ignoring that for a moment, though - Mark, would you care to elaborate on this briefly "if primary isnt over in 3 days I would be worried" ?

How worried and why? Based on the vast majority of my reading (and I know my reading (and experience) isn't as extensive as yours, which is why I am seeking clarification) suggests that a fast ferment is nothing but bad news.

 

[MHB]

For Ale enough good healthy yeast into a well aerated wort, its all over in 72 Hours.
Three or four more days for the yeast to mop up and drop, out of there in a week, maturation time is still required.
The more I read here on AHB the more I am convinced that there are a lot of brewers way under pitching and with yeast a lot less healthy than they think, have a look at the number of Whats wrong with my beer questions and so (too) often the answer is yeast mismanagement.
The number of times you read hydrate yeast without any qualifiers is appalling, remember I have to solve brewers problems on a daily basis thats really what I do for a living so often the right answer is to just do the basic stuff right, in this case use lots of yeast and dont **** with it unless you really are doing it properly.
Ok rant over probably shouldnt make a dent in a bottle of Lagavulin before posting but seriously the ever longer recommended times to leave beer in the fermenter should be ringing some alarm bells.
I used Saaz in the test (see previous post) and at a lot more than 1g/L and the difference was striking. No discernible grass and a fresh cut lawn, in a test designed to cause grassiness, the absence I think demonstrates the point but please try it for your selves and see what happens.
Mark

 

[manticle]

They're all fair points you make. It's just that a fairly blanket statement such as 'dry hop late and you are just asking for trouble' is a bit general and goes against the experience of many.

I would suggest dry hopping appropriately and judiciously gives a good result.

 

[bum]

Thanks for the reply, Mark. I'm sure you don't need to underscore your experience in fixing peoples' beer problems. I wouldn't be asking the question at all if I didn't want to understand your point.

For Ale enough good healthy yeast into a well aerated wort, it's all over in 72 Hours.

I guess where I'm coming from is that lots of advice I've been given (directly and indirectly) is to try to extend that time through temp control. If I'm deliberately seeking to slow down the process (say, 6 days - and assuming good aeration and pitching rates), what do you see as the potential "worries"?

I suppose the fact I only very rarely brew under 1055-1060 might be something influencing my reaction to 3 days being suggested as always being long enough?

 

[MHB]

Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers, but the response wasnt really aimed at people not having a problem rather at the large number of people who are.
I am referring to normal beer 1.040-1.050 and there are a lot of brewers who want to dry hop injudiciously and who are having problems.

I have two major concerns with extending fermentation times
Infection I doubt that anyones brew is a monoculture of just the yeast we want, what protects a beer from unwanted bugs is the conditions at the end of the fermentation process (high alcohol, low oxygen, low residual sugars, lower pH, high pressure once conditioned, hop products...) the quicker you get a brew from the start to the finish the less chance any of the nasties have of taking hold.

Yeast breakdown products eventually yeast will break down and it will affect the flavour of the beer, I know there has been a lot of discussion about this subject recently. Extreme yeast autolysis takes a very long time or very adverse conditions but there are a lot of undesirable flavours I believe can be ascribed to yeast management short of Burnt Rubber that have a negative impact on the beer.

In my experience and based on a lot of reading big healthy pitches and dry hopping early are two important steps to preventing unwanted flavours.
Mark

 

[manticle]

Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers

Only when you make bold statements like 'x is asking for trouble'. You must admit it's pretty definitive when it doesn't come with a qualifier. Thanks for the clarification though.

Your points about healthy yeast are exactly why I'm interested in your aeration kit so I can see the difference for myself.

 

[bum]

Cheers, Mark.

 

[JakeSm]

Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers, but the response wasn't really aimed at people not having a problem rather at the large number of people who are.
I am referring to "normal" beer 1.040-1.050 and there are a lot of brewers who want to dry hop injudiciously and who are having problems.

I have two major concerns with extending fermentation times
Infection I doubt that anyone's brew is a monoculture of just the yeast we want, what protects a beer from unwanted bugs is the conditions at the end of the fermentation process (high alcohol, low oxygen, low residual sugars, lower pH, high pressure once conditioned, hop products...) the quicker you get a brew from the start to the finish the less chance any of the nasties have of taking hold.

Yeast breakdown products eventually yeast will break down and it will affect the flavour of the beer, I know there has been a lot of discussion about this subject recently. Extreme yeast autolysis takes a very long time or very adverse conditions but there are a lot of undesirable flavours I believe can be ascribed to yeast management short of "Burnt Rubber" that have a negative impact on the beer.

In my experience and based on a lot of reading big healthy pitches and dry hopping early are two important steps to preventing unwanted flavours.
Mark

so what do you think of this, i have just bottled a belgian blonde style ale that took 18 days to reach 3 consistant readings on the hydrometer.
as i was tasting the finished wort, the beer tasted like one of my best and would not change a thing.
i did dry hop with SAAZ and Hallertau but a the start of fermentation and i agree that this is needed rather than more towards then end.

i am not worried with my beers taking longer to ferment as the longer and colder fermentation is, the better my beer will be after bottle conditiong.

On another Point, it is to my understanding (advice coming from my stepfather Philip Down of Hunter Valley, you may remember him as he used to purchase ingredients off you. He is also a bachelour certified wine maker and studied the behaviours of yeasts for a few years) that Yeast Autolysis occurs when the yeasts are losing nutrients and nitrogen in fermentation and they then go looking for it in the dead or broken down yeast cells. they dont find any, however what they do find is a substance called Cysteen (dont know about the spelling) and as the yeasts begin to consume this, this is what causes the sulphuric (rotten egg) smell/aromas in the wort and if it is not fixed (usually by adding Diamonnium Phosphate, and Severly airating) it may cause infection in the brew and some really bad tastes once bottled, that may not age out.

Would i be right in saying any of this Mark, by the way you need to send him some more of that aussie gold rum essence as that is my favourite...

cheers jake.

 

[MHB]

Ill skip replying so some of your points that are getting too close to a retail question:-
It can be a mistake to try and translate what we know about wine making directly to beer making, from time to time we get some very vehement wine makers trying to tell brewers what is what and as a rule they come unstuck pretty fast. Not in any way questioning the knowledge or skill of the wine making fraternity just how well a lot of what they do applies to brewing.
Just as an aside, Aristotle recommended Owls eggs as a hangover cure, turns out that they are the richest natural source of cysteine, a really important part of the alcohol metabolisation pathway, it is also pretty rare in beer I believe, being a fairly large protein it tends to be condensed and wind up in the kettle trub. Beer yeast tends to find other ways to cause us trouble.
There was a thread here a couple of months ago sighting the head brewer at Budvar, basically at lager temperatures they were getting primary finished in 3-4 Days but at a pitch rate of around 4-5Million cells/mL/point so much faster ferments are possible, maybe a little less than practical for home brewers.
Mark

 

[JakeSm]

Thanks mark, i thought i would be rambling on a bit, it makes sense that these things are mixed up between beer and wine making, but being under the advice of a winemaker i sure learnt alot i may not have ever learnt. I should be coming up to your shop soon so i will introduce myself and grab some items for phil.

Cheers jake.

 

[Spiesy]

@MHB, your points make a very interesting read indeed.

I've been brewing mainly APA's and American Ambers with US05, at around 18-19 degrees (OG of around 1055-1060)... if my wort is aerated enough, how long do you anticipate a finished ferment should take? They are usually 20-23L batches, one sachet of US05 (or Nottingham) per batch, pitched at around 20-21 degrees.

 

[Nick JD]

Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.

Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.

 

[Brewer_010]

Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.

Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.

nice thought to leave me with...thanks.

I've got a fair bit of PoR at the moment to make a couple of batches of CSA clone - wont be dry hopping though! Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?

 

[Nick JD]

Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?

No commercial brewer is that stupid.

There are very few beers on the market that use it later than 60 minutes. There are far, far better hops out there.

 

[jyo]

Thanks for your replies on this, Mark.

On my next APA I will try adding the dry hops at start of fermentation and see how it goes.

Cheers.

 

[Spiesy]

Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.

Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.

Gold.

 

[Batz]

Just as an aside, Aristotle recommended Owls eggs as a hangover cure, turns out that they are the richest natural source of cysteine, a really important part of the alcohol metabolisation pathway.

Mark

I perfer them to dry hopping with POR, or Nannas for that matter.