Rims Input Needed

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks LC - the controller has dedicated SSR output, can just be wired straight in. But I am more than happy with the Mechanical relays ATM.

They dont and as far as I am concerned don't need to adjust the power out-put of the element (or approximate doing so anyway). They do their job simply by adjusting the amount of time they leave the element switched on for. The PID function enables the system to anticipate cooling before it happens and to creep up on set temps when its heating up. The controllers have the ability to be set to run as on/off units, and when I tried them as such, don't come close to the accuracy and temp stability I get when they run in PID mode.

Its not as "good" as it would be with an SSR - but its still pretty damn good and much better than on/off. Like I said, I will swap when the units internal mech relays go south, but till then I will stick with them as they are... unless I get bored.

FarsideOfCrazy - I think you are going too complex. The things that LC and I have been talking about are really fine control for re-circulating mash stuff. If you are talking a RIMS unit, thats the sort of controllers you are looking at - if you are talking elements for a kettle and a HLT, the situation is much less complex.

Kettle - 4800W or two 2400W is more than enough for a double batch. You can get the control you might like by simply going with two 2400W units - both on to heat up, both on for a double batch, turn one off if you are boiling a single batch. No need for a controller at all though you could add one later if you dont like what you are getting without it.

HLT - all you need is a simple set-point on/off controller like the mash mate or a simple thermostat. I have a 40L urn for my HLT because I didn't want to be bothered making one.

Cheers

TB

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

Thanks for that TB. I can see what you mean about just using the elements without a controller. It shouldn't be too hard to rig something up if needed down the track if it's not working right.

Like the old saying, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Actually, I was just reading the "advice on going electric" thread and it sounds like even 2 x 2400W would be going too far. People seem to be having success with a 2400W + 1800W - both running to get up to a boil or for double batches. One or the other (probably the 2400W) for single batch boiling.

If you haven't, check out that thread for more of the same stuff you have been getting here - but from a slightly different angle

TB

 

[justsomeguy]

Actually, I was just reading the "advice on going electric" thread and it sounds like even 2 x 2400W would be going too far. People seem to be having success with a 2400W + 1800W - both running to get up to a boil or for double batches. One or the other (probably the 2400W) for single batch boiling.

Yep, 2 2400 watt elements might be a little too much. I run a 1800 and 2400 element in my kettle and a 1800 watt in my HLT. Single batches are fine with either the 1800 or 2400 watt element only during the boil. Depends on ambient temperature as to which one is used. I've found that I'm using both the 1800 and 2400 watt elements on double batches in my kettle (50 litre keggle).

About the only advantage with 2 2400 watt elements would be getting to a boil is little faster. I put my HLT on a timer so that when I get up in the morning I have water pretty close to strike temp though this will change once I get my microprocessor controller finished.

gary.

 

[rwmingis]

Well I'm getting there, hardware design is almost done. I'll upload a progress report soon. Thanks for all of your input so far. :icon_cheers:

Before I do that, I want to consider a filter on the inlet of the pump, mainly to keep clogs from occuring. The one I am considering is below:

It's only rated for 70C however, I think it would be okay to exceed that by 5 or so degrees with no ill effects. I do intend on programming in a cleaning cycle for the unit which I was hoping would run around 90C, which may be a bit much. Worst comes to worse, it's only 30 bucks. For reference it's about 75mm in diameter.

My question for you all is what do you all think about the filter itself getting clogged. From my experience, I have had only small amounts of grain getting past the grain bed during normal mashing, but I've never done a consistent recirculation mash. If there's heaps that make it through during a RIMS mash, it could be a problem.

I'd be able to empty the filter it by elevating the unit above the mash tun and removing the basket. Doubt it would spill wort all over the place, but I would have to reprime the pump afterwards.

Any comments?

Cheers,

Rob

 

[browndog]

I will say right here I know bugger all about control of electric elements, but from what I have read, made me purchase burst fire controllers from Sutronics to run my two 3000W kettle elements. I understand they are a very good way to vary the power to your elements.

BTW, If you look at Mr Wizards column in the latest BYO, you will see a question by me about electric kettles caramalising wort.

cheers

Browndog

 

[newguy]

Brewing Bob,

I've never actually thought of using a filter - it would help to prevent grain husks from getting to your heating element. I wonder why I've never actually seen a RIMS with a filter before......makes a lot of sense. Great idea. :beer:

Practically, since it's only rated to 70C, is it possible for you to plumb the filter into the system in such a way that you can easily bypass it? I'm thinking of QDs. I don't use use QDs, so excuse any naming errors in the following description.

QD "male" --> filter inlet, filter outlet --> QD "female"

Bypassing the filter would be simple since the QD "upstream" female would mate with the QD "downstream" male. Once the wort gets to ~70C, remove the filter. Practically, there are very few grain husks circulating after the sacch rest is complete so the filter really doesn't need to be there.

 

[rwmingis]

Brewing Bob,

I've never actually thought of using a filter - it would help to prevent grain husks from getting to your heating element. I wonder why I've never actually seen a RIMS with a filter before......makes a lot of sense. Great idea. :beer:

Practically, since it's only rated to 70C, is it possible for you to plumb the filter into the system in such a way that you can easily bypass it? I'm thinking of QDs. I don't use use QDs, so excuse any naming errors in the following description.

QD "male" --> filter inlet, filter outlet --> QD "female"

Bypassing the filter would be simple since the QD "upstream" female would mate with the QD "downstream" male. Once the wort gets to ~70C, remove the filter. Practically, there are very few grain husks circulating after the sacch rest is complete so the filter really doesn't need to be there.

Since i'm hard piping, I suppose I could just have it on tri-clover clamps and replace the filter with a straight pipe when the temperature get's too hot. Good point. Otherwise could use a diverter valve and a check valve, but space is somewhat of a premium. I haven't as yet been able to find tri-clover to BSP fittings yet, defeats the purpose of a sanitary connection i reckon.

So, yes, clogs are an issue, is husks touching the the element an issue as well?

Rob

 

[LethalCorpse]

Since i'm hard piping, I suppose I could just have it on tri-clover clamps and replace the filter with a straight pipe when the temperature get's too hot. Good point. Otherwise could use a diverter valve and a check valve, but space is somewhat of a premium. I haven't as yet been able to find tri-clover to BSP fittings yet, defeats the purpose of a sanitary connection i reckon.

So, yes, clogs are an issue, is husks touching the the element an issue as well?

Rob

there's no point bothering with tri-clovers unless you've got a tig welder, are using stainless end-to-end, and want to spend about four times as much on your system.

I don't think a filter will add value. The piping will be free enough that what few husks make it through the filter bed will come out the other side unmolested. To prevent them scorching on your element, just recirc for a few minutes to form a grain bed before you start heating. It'll rn clear after that.

 

[newguy]

As LethalCorpse said, scorching isn't an issue if you don't turn on the element for maybe 5 minutes after your start recirculating. However, if you happen to forget.....

I mention scorching because a friend has a RIMS and his beers started to turn smokey all of a sudden. When he finally pulled apart his heating chamber, it was almost plugged solid with what resembled charcoal. All it takes is a few husks to lodge and the vicious circle starts.

I also have to ask why hard piping? It's a PITA to clean. You can see when reinforced vinyl gets dirty and it's easy and cheap to replace.

 

[LethalCorpse]

I thought vinyl was dodgy in contact with hot food product?


He's not going to forget to recirc before heating though. His controller is going to do it for him

 

[newguy]

I'm sure that the hoses I have are rated for up to something like 80 or 85C. They're food grade, as they're used for potable household water. Maybe they're not vinyl - could be something else.

 

[rwmingis]

As LethalCorpse said, scorching isn't an issue if you don't turn on the element for maybe 5 minutes after your start recirculating. However, if you happen to forget.....

I mention scorching because a friend has a RIMS and his beers started to turn smokey all of a sudden. When he finally pulled apart his heating chamber, it was almost plugged solid with what resembled charcoal. All it takes is a few husks to lodge and the vicious circle starts.

I also have to ask why hard piping? It's a PITA to clean. You can see when reinforced vinyl gets dirty and it's easy and cheap to replace.

I'm hard piping it as I want it to be a bit more permanent. I reckon a failure is less like than it would be with flexible. If there's a failure, what a mess that would make of the kitchen and my marriage! If i do use any flexible tubing, it will likely be silicone rather than vinyl. I already have the spiral wound anti-collapsing silicone tubing on the suction end of the pump coming from the mash tun (but that's suction). Theres also the bling factor as well which is absent with flexible hosing in my opinion.

I reckon I might be able to keep scorching at bay by limiting the power to the element as a function of the flow rate. If it's zooming through the heating chamber, I can add heaps of power to the element. If it's piddling about, not much power at all.

As for cleaning, i plan on running hot caustic through the system as part of the cleaning cycle. This should clean the element and the piping of sugars etc.

 

[rwmingis]

Hi Everyone,

We'll i've found some time and progressed the design a bit. I've attached a P&ID to show the layout, see below: (you may need to click on the bar at the top of the image to see a readable version)

My goal is based on KISS but with a few bells and whistles.

To describe the system as it stands now:

1. I'll be using the quick disconnect couplings like you see online at beer belly. With those connectors I'll use that plutone spiral wire reinforced tubing so that it doesn't collapse.

2. I've put a inline strainer on the pump inlet. This will prevent clogs further down the system. I will be able remove the basket and empty with hopefully no drips as filter basket is at a high point in the system, and the sources of head are isolatable via manual ball valve out tun outlet and check valve line up the side of the tun.

3. I've got DN20 polycarbonate tubing to view the pump inlet, mainly to see if there's air and view wort quality. (Thanks Yorg!)

4. Pump is march pump 809-PL-HS (230V). I have a modified pump curve for 50 Hz if any one wants it. The March pump website has one for 60Hz but there's a fair difference in head and flowrate due to the difference in speed.

5. Outlet of pump has a sample port for ph Measurement, SG measurement, and air bleed. Still struggling to find a suitable right angle valve that's still small. does anyone have any ideas?

6. Diaphragm flow control valve for precise flow regulation.

7. I have a flow meter comprised of an orifice plate and two differential pressure sensors. I use two (0 to .3 psi and 0 to 5 psi) to get a good level of resolution among all flow rates. By knowing the flowrate through the system (and therefore the heating chamber) i can limit the amount of power to the element to prevent scorching. Ie if flow is zero, the diff pressure meter reads zero, and no heat will go to chamber, otherwise it could boil. If the flow is rocketing through the chamber, I can put the heat on full blast. The amount of limiting will likely be some proportion to the flow rate and be determined during commissioning.

8. The valve to the kettle is normally closed except during sparging. By using the static head in the return line, i have approx 600mm head at the valve to give flow through. This removes the need for a selector valve between recirculation and filling the kettle. An added bonus is that during both mashing and sparging (filling the kettle) the flow rate remains the same in the system, as what doesn't go into the kettle, goes back into the mash tun. The check valve prevents flow from going backward through system when cleaning out strainer basket.

Thats about it so far, any issues or comments would be appreciated. Hopefully no showstoppers are left in the design.

I've made a 3d model and will post that up for comments when ready.

Thanks to all for the input.

Cheers

BB.

Edit: Fixed error in P&ID

 

[rwmingis]

Hi all, just an update here on my progress with the RIMS unit.

I finally finalised the design and found a couple days over the Christmas break to begin fabricating the unit. The final layout is completely different (thanks to all of your input) is in the next few images. Yorg, note the clear plastic tube you provided me in front of the control box. Thanks again!

The operation will be as follows:

1. Wort will enter via the far left camlock fitting at the filter which is set at 50 microns. It's a bit small and need to figure out how to get a coarser mesh. It clogged once, but only when i gave the mash a vigorous stir which I don't think I'll need to do once I get this thing going.

2. A check valve follows the filter to keep wort from back flowing when i empty the filter basked if it does clog. The check valves also prevent cross flow between the MT and HLT.

3. Wort then travels through the inlet manifold to the March pump (809HS + 815 impeller upgrade) via a clear plastic tube. The clear tube allows me to see the condition of the wort entering the pump, ie check for air bubbles and monitor colour. There is a bleed/sample valve after the pump (not shown, but on the far side of the tee) to aid in priming the pump and taking wort samples during the mash.

4. There is a diaphragm valve after the pump to control flow. Unfortunately it's a manual one due to costs of a motorised one.

5. The wort then heads into the heating chamber. It's designed so that the wort enters at a tangent and exits at the opposite tangent so that it creates a spiral flow. This increases the flow velocity over the heating element by about 20 times to minimise any possibility of scorching.

6. A flow sensor is installed after the heat exchanger to monitor wort flow rate in order to check for stuck mashes, and help determine how much power to give the heating chamber. If the flow is high, I'll add a lot of heat, if the flow is low, I will add a little heat to control scorching.

7. After the flow sensor, the wort then heads back to the mash tun via the return line, or if the sparge valve is open, some of the flow can be diverted to the kettle during sparging. The flow rate in the system will likely be the same since what doesn't go into the kettle will return to the mash tun. This might cause my efficiency to go down (recirculating during sparging) so if that's the case, then I can reduce the entire system flow rate to the sparge flow rate via the throttle on the pump outlet and completely divert all flow to the kettle.

8. During sparging, there is a second inlet from the HLT (the second camlock fitting from the left). This is controlled via a solenoid valve which is then controlled via the wort level. I'll set the level sensor to keep the wort about 20mm above the surface of the grainbed. Because the HLT water surface level is higher than the MT wort surface level, and because the grainbed introduces head losses, the pump will draw a little more from the HLT than it will from the MT thereby topping up the MT with sparge water.

Thats about it for the time being. Once I finish fabrication, I'll provide an update with the control design.

Hope this is of some help to somebody out there.

Cheers,

Rob

 

[rwmingis]

Well I've begun fabricating the heating chamber, see below:

Jeez it's hard work doing this without a proper shop; have been pre-heating the unit by spanning it over two stove burners while brazing and had the drill press on the kitchen counter and drilling with dull bits using olive oil as lubricant. Finally got the hard bit done, just need to braze the inlets and outlets to the chamber and I'll be done with this component.

I do have one question though, how do you clean all the (for lack of a better word) 'slag' off of the silver soldered joints and also where the copper has turned black and crusty from all the heat? Is this something that can be pickled, and if so what brand of solution and where can I get it?

Don't have access to a sand blaster any more, might have to get out the salt and pepper shaker instead to be consistent with the rest of the project!

Rob

 

[newguy]

You mean on the inside, right? Any chance you can hook up a sacrificial pump and recirculate a bit of sandy water for while? On the outside I'd just use some sandpaper. 220 grit will be fine.

 

[rwmingis]

You mean on the inside, right? Any chance you can hook up a sacrificial pump and recirculate a bit of sandy water for while? On the outside I'd just use some sandpaper. 220 grit will be fine.

Yes, I'm mainly concerned with the inside, I was just hoping I could do the outside at the same time.

I've heard of pickling after soldering/brazing but never seen the pickling solution. I have used lemon juice on something small which does work, however, this would take an awful lot of lemon juice.

Pumping sand through it would work great, but unfortunately, I don't have a sacrificial pump. Sounds like I'll be using the 220 grit on the outside at least.

 

[bigfridge]

Yes, I'm mainly concerned with the inside, I was just hoping I could do the outside at the same time.

I've heard of pickling after soldering/brazing but never seen the pickling solution. I have used lemon juice on something small which does work, however, this would take an awful lot of lemon juice.

Pumping sand through it would work great, but unfortunately, I don't have a sacrificial pump. Sounds like I'll be using the 220 grit on the outside at least.

Use cheap Vinegar as Copper + weak acid = clean.

 

[rwmingis]

Just updating the P&ID to show the latest design... See attached. It'll never be done, but it's good enough.

BB.

View attachment P_ID_Rev_F.pdf