Recirculating Single Vessel Breweries

[breakbeer]

I'm also trying to figure out what to do with my wort return, at the moment it's just fed through a quick connect in the lid. Been leaning towards something like the coiled copper pipe like the one in this thread: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=68319


My first couple of brews I had to really throttle back the pump & even turn it completely off so that it didn't fill the bag too much or expose the element, (Thanks to Big Nath for the heads up on that one) I solved this by drilling about 100 extra 3mm holes in the standard crab cooker. Now it drains beautifully. Have to admit though, it took only half an hour to drill the holes, then another 2 hours cleaning up the burrs on every hole <_<

 

[mattlea266]

I just had another thought. In keeping with the BIAB technique I use a coffee grinder for my grain. Any thoughts on whether this will be an issue, dont really want to drop any more money for mill. I ended up making a bottom feeder, hopefully this will keep the grain moving so it does not clog, will wait and see. Waiting for the 12v adapter for pump before I start drilling holes in copper. Be interesting to see how many holes I can get away with.

 

[QldKev]

Thought I would throw a brew through on my "Little Bro" system today. Here's a couple of pics of the setup as it stands now, ( always tinkering :lol: )

First pic shows the heating element, allows step mashes and is used for the boil. Also notice there is 2 return lines. The bottom one allows a recirc in under the false bottom to ensure adequate wort flow past the element at all times.



Second pic shows homemade false bottom in place. It's a 15 inch pizza tray on legs. You'll see it covers the pickup and the bottom return and the element to ensure the bag cannot touch it during the brew. Also the measurements on the side 32L, 29L and 25L. 32L is the initial water level, 29L is once I lift the bag and add some runnings back if needed; finally 25L is post boil.



Third pic shows the full system including the pump. In case you can't work out the insulation on the vessel there is 3 layers there as I found the 2KW element the minimum for the job. The brew stand is an unused Black and Decker work table. The mis-match of fitting is because I used what was left over in the brewery/workshop.



Last pic is of the return arm in action. It sits under the water/wort level once the grain is in. That's about 4L/min via the top and another 10L/min via the bottom return. There's a total of 8 holes for the wort return, 2 form the end, 4 from the sides and underneath two facing back towards the ball valve. (9 if you include me not tightening up the compression fitting onto the return arm)



I'm really enjoying this system as it's very simple and fun to use, and a lot simpler to setup and clean than my 3V. (but my 3V allows up to 4 times the vol to be produced)


QldKev

 

[breakbeer]

I just had another thought. In keeping with the BIAB technique I use a coffee grinder for my grain. Any thoughts on whether this will be an issue, dont really want to drop any more money for mill. I ended up making a bottom feeder, hopefully this will keep the grain moving so it does not clog, will wait and see. Waiting for the 12v adapter for pump before I start drilling holes in copper. Be interesting to see how many holes I can get away with.

I can't comment on the coffee grinder, although I definitely know what you're saying about forking out for a grain mill. Trying to convince swmbo it'd be a good investment is the main problem I'm having


That wort return pipe is bloody awesome, love the simplicity of it too. Might have to 'take inspiration' from that design

 

[mattlea266]

Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.

can we see wsome pics of the rest of the rig?

 

[QldKev]

Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.

My "Little Bro" system is a couple of posts back. I'm milling at 0.9mm (to suit my 3V) and using a Swiss voile bag. I have no issues with the flow, even if I recirculate a lot more than a brown pump flows. So I would say yes it should help you.

Can you get someone to mill a batch of grain for you to try it out?
Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction?
Does the basket sit above the pickup?


Where's the pics :wub:


QldKev

 

[bignath]

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.

I know exactly what you mean. I had the same problem on my first brew with my Recirc BIAB rig when i ran the pump flat out. Have since been running it at half flow rate, and the problem has vanished. I blew my first element doing what you did and haven't had an issue with speed or blown elements since throttling it back.

The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

Depends where you get the BIAB bag from. I use a Grain and Grape bag. I have used voille before, but not on my recirc'ing rig. The mill will make a difference for sure. Not jus for the type of crush, but for repeatability of crush too. Worth every cent to own one.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.

With the small inconvenience of your flow problem above (which WILL be remedied by throttling back your pump), i'd say you've had a pretty good brewday!

can we see wsome pics of the rest of the rig?

+1. Would love to see some shots of it in action!

 

[mkstalen]

I'm slowly embarking on by build of a Recirculating Single Vessel BIAB, based on Big Nath's rig build, but on a tight budget.
Hoping to get some feedback and let me know if I'm attempting any big no-no's.

Pot: Large 40L(?) aluminium pot with a SS ball valve already attached, and small 90deg brass pickup.
Basket: 20L food grade HDPE plastic bucket with a stack of holes drilled in the bottom, sitting on stainless steel bolt "legs" to keep it off the burners. (Al-la bucket-o-death systems).
Heating: 2 x $8 Big W kettle elements to be fitted into either side of the pot (Will I have issued due to the curve of the pot? Should I position one nearer the tap to ensure movement around the element?)
Piping: Hose fittings and food grade clear reinforced hose
"The return": Hard black plastic bits from sprinkler system (not sure if food grade, problem?). This will be attached to the underside of the lid of the 20L bucket to return the wort into the centre of the BIAB bag.
Temp control: Yet to be purchased STC-1000, probe to be contained inside a thermowell of narrow silicone hose also fed into system via bucket lid.
Pump: Still tossing up between the 12V "Little Brown Pump" or a 240V MP-15RM from Aliexpress.

Yes, it sounds a little ghetto. Funds are tight, hence using plastic fittings rather than brass or SS.

Comments, criticisms?

 

[breakbeer]

If you're using a crab cooker type basket than heed the advice in my earlier post & drill a hundred or so more holes in it

Had first attempt brewing with new rig. A few problems which I anticipated but not sure what to do about.

Main problem was I was pumping into the basket quicker than the wort was filtering through the basket so the basket overflowed.
This meant I had to turn the pump down or off and keep close eye on levels.
The design of my outlet pipe is such that it is supposed to agitate the grain in the bottom but because I was turning pump down or off it wasn't that successful. I use swiss voile and coffee grinder for grain which I think made the problem worse. Any ideas if BIAB Bag and mill would offer better results.

On positive side early checks show at least 10% efficiency improvement and I kept mash temp within 0.5 of a degree for the entire mash.
I think the rest of the issues I had will be smoothed over future brews.

 

[bignath]

Righto mate, here goes with my findings/opinions...

I'm slowly embarking on by build of a Recirculating Single Vessel BIAB, based on Big Nath's rig build, but on a tight budget.
Hoping to get some feedback and let me know if I'm attempting any big no-no's.

Pot: Large 40L(?) aluminium pot with a SS ball valve already attached, and small 90deg brass pickup. Will be fine.
Basket: 20L food grade HDPE plastic bucket with a stack of holes drilled in the bottom, sitting on stainless steel bolt "legs" to keep it off the burners. (Al-la bucket-o-death systems). The legs work well, don't think the plastic will be a good idea though due to heat and weight.
Heating: 2 x $8 Big W kettle elements to be fitted into either side of the pot (Will I have issued due to the curve of the pot? Should I position one nearer the tap to ensure movement around the element?) I wouldn't be using those elements as your boil elements. I found out the hard way. Over the duration of a batch, those elements get alot of buildup of break over them, and they tend to cut out and stay off once they do. Perfectly fine for mashing temp maintaining, but i wouldn't boil with them. Luckily for me i have two handheld immersions that i boil with. No problems since doing this.
Piping: Hose fittings and food grade clear reinforced hose Whilst not ideal, i don't see too many problems with this. My system is far from perfect from a material perspective anyway. In fact it's far from perfect in any aspect..
"The return": Hard black plastic bits from sprinkler system (not sure if food grade, problem?). This will be attached to the underside of the lid of the 20L bucket to return the wort into the centre of the BIAB bag. I wouldn't use that black stuff, for the same reasons you doubt it yourself. Use a short (1mt) length of silicone hose for the return. Only cost $10 but worth it IMO.
Temp control: Yet to be purchased STC-1000, probe to be contained inside a thermowell of narrow silicone hose also fed into system via bucket lid. I don't see why this wouldn't work..
Pump: Still tossing up between the 12V "Little Brown Pump" or a 240V MP-15RM from Aliexpress. Either will work. I have the little brown pump, but any option of "brewers pumps" will work here if the little brown pump does..

Yes, it sounds a little ghetto. Funds are tight, hence using plastic fittings rather than brass or SS.

Comments, criticisms?

 

[mattlea266]

Thanks for all replies

Can you get someone to mill a batch of grain for you to try it out?
Yes, Ill ask him to borrow his mill. When I lifted basket to remove grain it was just trickling through, I know that when grain is submerged in the wort grain bed is looser, but it really does settle quickly. I had to regularly stir with spoon to get the wort level to move at all.
Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction?
Possibly, but when testing with just water, pumped without a hitch. I also added some extra holes to try and avoid what happened today.

Does the basket sit above the pickup?
Yes, its on legs.

Added some photos but I will try to get some action shots next time I'm brewing. Pretty hard with the lid on as wort sprays up as well.


Holes drilled in all directions to try and maintain movement. Does anyone else notice a bit of a lag in the "thermowell", probe may not have been in far enough

2 X $8 kettle elements, had to run off two separate circuits in the house. Raises 2 degrees per minute on 30 litres. Very vigorous boil with both elements. With one element it was still better than my gas cooktop.

Cheap pulley system made life much easier.

Had a spare STC1000 from fermenting fridge so thought I might as well use it. Cant run both element off one STC 1000 mainly because it trips the circuit breaker. Scored a sweet table on wheels yesterday which is perfect size. Ended up getting stainless fittings for disconnects because after pricing bunnings for brass hose fittings I think this worked out cheaper and I didn't need to get any reducing nipples or bushes. Any brass on the rig is purely because I already had it at home
I think that's it

 

[zxhoon]

You could use the STC1000 to switch a two pole relay that would have each supply coming in and then out to each element, then they would both be controlled and using your two circuits, would need a sparky to do it but any industrial electrician could do it, shouldnt cost much...

 

[MaltyHops]

... I think that's it

Adding support to that pump might be worth thinking about
- sounds like quite a few people have had the outlet shaft
break.

Maybe a T-shaped piece of wood or something could be placed
behind the pump inlet, pum body and pump outlet that is then
all cable tied together.

 

[mattlea266]

You could use the STC1000 to switch a two pole relay that would have each supply coming in and then out to each element, then they would both be controlled and using your two circuits, would need a sparky to do it but any industrial electrician could do it, shouldnt cost much...

I only have to run an extension lead 10m so its no big deal. The second STC1000 only runs when getting ready for mash in to get to strike temp quicker and so I dont go over temp if im not paying attention.

 

[thebigwilk]

Good to see your system QLD KEV. Heres mines Still working a treat getting 80% efficiency with a full recirculating mash no sparge biab system

 

[bignath]

bigwilk,

where'd you get that box from mate?

Very well thought out rig that one...

 

[thebigwilk]

bigwilk,

where'd you get that box from mate?

Very well thought out rig that one...

Ebay http ://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Weather-Enclosure-Cover-Housing-For-Marine-Stereo-Radio-/390268257386?pt=US_Marine_Audio&hash=item5addcd046a&_uhb=1#ht_921wt_906

 

[bignath]

Ebay http ://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Weather-Enclosure-Cover-Housing-For-Marine-Stereo-Radio-/390268257386?pt=US_Marine_Audio&hash=item5addcd046a&_uhb=1#ht_921wt_906

Genius, pure genius.

 

[breakbeer]

Could it be your basket is causing the flow restriction?
Possibly, but when testing with just water, pumped without a hitch. I also added some extra holes to try and avoid what happened today.
View attachment 58622

Of course it's gonna pump just water without a problem, it's water AND grain you need to worry about

Snapped a quick photo of the holes I drilled in mine, MUCH better flow since then & I can run the pump without throttling it back