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Ducatiboy stu said:
I dont think he has a pH problem. He has a process problem

Get the process sorted before even think about water. Dont wag the dog
I agree. I think mash pH is rarely a problem for any brewer as so few actually measure it, instead relying on a calculated value. Those that do use handheld meters or strips that are marginally better than using your finger to measure pH.

Also, it is vastly more important to get your efficient to a consistent value than it is to strive to get it higher. My efficiency is low compared to a lot of brewers but for nearly 9 years i hit 70% on the nose every time i brew a 'standard' beer.
 
I assumed I had a mash ph issue because my water is very high in bicarbonates. Bru n water software supported this.

As I have said, water chemistry has been my last resort because there isn't much more I can do.

My process has been exactly the same as every YouTube video, manufacturers instructions etc that I have seen. Which has not been working.

The only thing to really try now is a full volume mash, which I have never seen anyone do with a robobrew. I also am not the only one who can't get more than 60-65% out of this system. (65% is an awesome result for me btw considering my previous best has been 60% and worst was at 37%, most are around 48%)

If a moderator wants to merge the robobrew posts into the robobrew thread go for it btw.
 
there's little point pulling your hair out over efficiency. Brewers (myself included) are an obsessive bunch. we get fixated on some "fault" in our process but sometimes it's just easier to just RDWHAHB. lower efficiency is just another kilo of grain... $4...
 
PoN said:
I assumed I had a mash ph issue because my water is very high in bicarbonates. Bru n water software supported this.

As I have said, water chemistry has been my last resort because there isn't much more I can do.

My process has been exactly the same as every YouTube video, manufacturers instructions etc that I have seen. Which has not been working.

The only thing to really try now is a full volume mash, which I have never seen anyone do with a robobrew. I also am not the only one who can't get more than 60-65% out of this system. (65% is an awesome result for me btw considering my previous best has been 60% and worst was at 37%, most are around 48%)

If a moderator wants to merge the robobrew posts into the robobrew thread go for it btw.
Apologies PoN, it wasn't a crack at you but at a general approach to brewing on this forum and others where people rely on a spreadsheet to come up with what is a very important aspect of brewing. Very few people measure it. 4/5ths of FA understand it. There are plenty of very good books on this topic, the late Dr George Fix's 'Principles of Brewing Science' is a good introduction. Once you've got a clear understanding, Brewing: Science and Practice is the next step but that can be quite chewy. One take home message for me is - search BS&P for the term 'alkalinity'. In over 800 pages the word appears twice. Not one mention of the term 'residual alkalinity'. The conclusion i draw from this is that residual alkalinity is a made up term in the homebrewing community.

Water chemistry is indeed a very complicated area, I've been a chemistry researcher for >20 years and am still constantly learning. In my opinion, the spreadsheets circulating that calculate water chemistry values do not take in to account the buffering capacity of the mash itself nor do many people including those who call themselves scientists, understand the basic concept of an equilibrium. What happens is an engineer comes up with a way of calculating something without the fundamental understanding of the underlying chemistry.

Rant over, **** i need a coffee and possibly a pint of RIS.
 
lol no need for apologising, I am taking everything on board trust me. I know you are quite experienced and are well known amongst home brewers and I reckon everyone has brewed at least one of your recipes.

I am just a little frustrated at the robobrew system atm, I am kind of now wishing I spent the money on a 3V system. (assuming its the robobrew's fault and not mine)
 
Coodgee said:
there's little point pulling your hair out over efficiency. Brewers (myself included) are an obsessive bunch. we get fixated on some "fault" in our process but sometimes it's just easier to just RDWHAHB. lower efficiency is just another kilo of grain... $4...
Efficiency is not what you really want to chase

As the good Dr S stated earlier, it is consistency you want. If you are not consistent then you are doing something wrong

Getting upward of 80+% takes a lot of hard work and brews to get there so dont beat yourself to death that you cant reach high % points...beat yourself to death if you cant get consistancly
 
What Stu said. You can still brew great beer at 60% eff.

All rigs require tuning. I went from 85% BIAB to 55% for my first 3v brew. 3v Rig is now tuned and I consistantly hit numbers at 78% eff for double bath size.

Read the robobrew thread and find what other robobrewers are doing. Follow their tips and tricks

It will all come together with time.
 
PoN said:
My process has been exactly the same as every YouTube video, manufacturers instructions etc that I have seen. Which has not been working.
Well do something different. They only way I got better efficiency was basically "******* around with it " until I could hit 80% pretty easy

But it did not come overnight

Try different things that are not in the rule book. You will be surprised at what you learn
 
Do you recirculate through your mash with the robo brew like I do with the GF?

I agree, stuff the water chemistry ATM. check crush and temps

Maybe there is temp issues through the mash.
 
Crush is important

And from what I have gathered is, each system needs a specific crush to get max eff. My 26ltr false bottom esky loved a crush with 20-30% flour, and also pre conditioning grains

BIAB does not like a lot of flour, but likes gains that have been conditioned - mainly due to the extra in whole husks helping mashing and draining

Same as each system needs a different sparge routine

You gain your efficiency thru sparging - which is basically rinsing the sugars out of the grain

Nearly all modern malts convert within 30mins, but a 60min mash is good practice

Very rarely in 10yrs have i heard anyone complain about conversion in mashing
 
Ducatiboy stu said:
Crush is important

BIAB does not like a lot of flour, but likes gains that have been conditioned - mainly due to the extra in whole husks helping mashing and draining
Definitely noticed a difference in my BIAB system in regards to grain crush. I used to get a lot of flour with my old mill rollers, but since getting the replacement roller and moving to a coarser crush with very little flour, my efficiency has gone up. I don't condition my grains but haven't found a need to since the mill was fixed. I did do it a few times with the old roller to get the bloody thing to pull them through properly though, and widened the mill gap to stop it getting stuck. ******* almost an hour to mill a few kg of grains without doing that :blink: I think it did cause the efficiency to jump a bit, but my memory isn't great on that.
 
Rocker1986 said:
I don't condition my grains but haven't found a need to since the mill was fixed. I did do it a few times with the old roller to get the bloody thing to pull them through properly though, and widened the mill gap to stop it getting stuck. ******* almost an hour to mill a few kg of grains without doing that :blink: I think it did cause the efficiency to jump a bit, but my memory isn't great on that.
Conditioning does work, BUT you have to get it right

100mls - 5Kg

All mills are different, all systems are different

Unfortunately many brewers forget to bother to dial in their system and rely on some stupid app, and because they dont dial in, they dont get the expected results

Still has nothing to do with water profile and the OP question
 
DrSmurto said:
Apologies PoN, it wasn't a crack at you but at a general approach to brewing on this forum and others where people rely on a spreadsheet to come up with what is a very important aspect of brewing. Very few people measure it. 4/5ths of FA understand it. There are plenty of very good books on this topic, the late Dr George Fix's 'Principles of Brewing Science' is a good introduction. Once you've got a clear understanding, Brewing: Science and Practice is the next step but that can be quite chewy. One take home message for me is - search BS&P for the term 'alkalinity'. In over 800 pages the word appears twice. Not one mention of the term 'residual alkalinity'. The conclusion i draw from this is that residual alkalinity is a made up term in the homebrewing community.

Water chemistry is indeed a very complicated area, I've been a chemistry researcher for >20 years and am still constantly learning. In my opinion, the spreadsheets circulating that calculate water chemistry values do not take in to account the buffering capacity of the mash itself nor do many people including those who call themselves scientists, understand the basic concept of an equilibrium. What happens is an engineer comes up with a way of calculating something without the fundamental understanding of the underlying chemistry.

Rant over, **** i need a coffee and possibly a pint of RIS.
BSP's problem is not its chewiness, it's the asking price. The chewiness is what you want in a tome of that nature.
 
OK, well I get my LHBS to do the crush for me so I am not too sure how fine they do it. I do notice that there is some flour in the crush but it doesnt seem like too much.

I might ask them next time to see if they can do it slightly coarser. What exactly should I ask them? What size crush should I look at?
 
Try a more coarse crush and a finer crush and see what happens

At the end of the day you will still end up with beer
 
Ok today I brewed the Tower 10 IPA which got posted in this forum the other day.

My mash volume was 27L with a total of 6.4kg grain bill. This was the absolute limit of the robobrew, the mash was lapping at the very top. I mashed for 75min @ 66 and 15min @75

After the mash there was 21L of wort so I sparged 6 Litres bringing the pre-boil volume to about 27 Litres. Once again, 27L pre boil volume is reaching the limits of the robobrew.

Pre boil gravity was 1.054 this makes a mash efficiency of 76% (12%more than my last brew which was my previous best for efficiency)

Total efficiency ended up at 70% also smashing my previous best.

Looks like a bigger volume mash and less sparge is the way to go.
 
Use that exact process again on your next brew that is of a lower gravity, or just all brews for that matter, if it's improving things. Bigger grain bills like that usually result in a bit less efficiency, so you may well find with a more 'standard' sized grain bill that your efficiency jumps again.

For example, on batches targeting an OG in the mid-high 1.040s, I normally get about 75-77% total efficiency, but when I brew big beers like IPAs or heavy stouts, it drops about 10%. Process remains the same in all cases though, apart from maybe mash temperature.
 

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