Quick Table Sugar Question

[mckenry]

Hi All,
Cant find a definitive answer on when best to add table sugar to an AG brew.
I am 3V and usually do 90min boils.
When a recipe calls for x% table sugar as part of the ingredients I cant find exactly when this is added.
In the mash? I doubt it... as I imagine a fair amount could be lost?
In the boil? If so, at what time?
In the fermenter? Would be sure to get the entire amount, but then that would play havoc with my eff calcs (not that i care about eff much these days - always around 85% so only check every 4 or 5 brews)

So as you can guess, I havent used sugar in an AG before, just after a quick answer if possible.
Thanks guys.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Not sure if its right, but I always add it 15 mins before flame out in the boil (figured that was enough time to kill any bacteria that was added with the sugar)

 

[petesbrew]

Hi All,
Cant find a definitive answer on when best to add table sugar to an AG brew.
I am 3V and usually do 90min boils.
When a recipe calls for x% table sugar as part of the ingredients I cant find exactly when this is added.
In the mash? I doubt it... as I imagine a fair amount could be lost?
In the boil? If so, at what time?
In the fermenter? Would be sure to get the entire amount, but then that would play havoc with my eff calcs (not that i care about eff much these days - always around 85% so only check every 4 or 5 brews)

So as you can guess, I havent used sugar in an AG before, just after a quick answer if possible.
Thanks guys.

Quick answer - in the boil.
Going off a Belgian Golden strong ale recipe from a BBD a few years ago I did asian Palm sugar at 30min, and table sugar at 10min. I'd say the difference would be for the Palm sugar to fully dissolve?

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I recall jamil zainasheff talking about sugar in one of his podcasts... He was of the impression that nasty bugs couldn't live in sugar rich environments... So boiling the sugar might not entirely be necessary. How many K&K folk get away without boiling the sugar and don't get an infection?

Anyway the sugar goes in either into the boil or into the fermenter. High gravity beers can have sugar added a few days into fermentation to allow yeast numbers to build up

Cheers

edit: i love skittles!!!

 

[MeLoveBeer]

He was of the impression that nasty bugs couldn't live in sugar rich environments... So boiling the sugar might not entirely be necessary.

I was more referring to wild yeast which thrive in sugar rich environments, but you're probably right about 15 mins being more than required (I'd rather be too paranoid than not enough though).

 

[reviled]

I allways throw it in for the last 10 mins of the boil

My reason you put it in the boil as late as possible is if you increase your sugars in the wort your hop utilisation will drop slightly.

 

[HoppingMad]

Yep. Me too. Last 10 mins. Particularly with Coopers style clones that call for sugar in the boil.

Have seen published recipes that call for sugar at all kinds of places, 20 mins, 15, or 5 - the occaisional one will suggest 60. But late boil is generally the ticket.

Have added Dextrose in Secondary on Belgian Strong Ales too, so yep, you can add fermenter sugar, but you need a yeast that can deal with all that fermentable material, otherwise you're over stressing those yeastie beasties out and risk introducing flavours you really don't want.

Hopper.

 

[mikem108]

In high gravity Belgians I add the sugar once dissolved in boiling water and cooled to the fermenter after the initial yeast activity dies down or about 60% of expected attenuation is reached

 

[Screwtop]

In the boil, depending on the beer, to keep colour contribution low the last 10 - 15 min, otherwise full term. Any amount above 10% sugar I add to the ferment after day three in small amounts every second day (dissolved in a very small volume of water).

Screwy

 

[Nick JD]

When I'm adding sugar I put my 1/2 whirlfloc tablet in the sugar to remind me to add the sugar/whirlfloc - two things I often forget to add.

 

[mckenry]

Thanks everyone. Enough info there. 15min or later it is.

 

[bcp]

One of the reasons sugar is not always added at the start is that the yeast will tend to focus on fructose, sucrose or dextrose over maltose. I have a vague idea yeast also tends to change its profile a little to adjust to the available foods, but not sure on that. However if you have high levels of these sugars, it makes sense to give the yeast a headstart on the maltose before feeding it junk food.

Interesting article:

Yeast cells often encounter a mixture of different carbohydrates in industrial processes. However, glucose and sucrose are always consumed first. The presence of these sugars causes repression of gluconeogenesis, the glyoxylate cycle, respiration and the uptake of less-preferred carbohydrates. Glucose and sucrose also trigger unexpected, hormone-like effects, including the activation of cellular growth, the mobilization of storage compounds and the diminution of cellular stress resistance. In an industrial context, these effects lead to several yeast-related problems, such as slow or incomplete fermentation, off flavors and poor maintenance of yeast vitality. Recent studies indicate that the use of mutants with altered responses to carbohydrates can significantly increase productivity. Alternatively, avoiding unnecessary exposure to glucose and sucrose could also improve the performance of industrial yeasts. Glucose and sucrose: hazardous fast-food for industrial yeast? Trends in Biotechnology Volume 22, Issue 10, October 2004, Pages 531-537 ​

 

[Swinging Beef]

One of the reasons sugar is not always added at the start is that the yeast will tend to focus on fructose, sucrose or dextrose over maltose. I have a vague idea yeast also tends to change its profile a little to adjust to the available foods, but not sure on that. However if you have high levels of these sugars, it makes sense to give the yeast a headstart on the maltose before feeding it junk food.

Interesting article:

Yeast cells often encounter a mixture of different carbohydrates in industrial processes. However, glucose and sucrose are always consumed first. The presence of these sugars causes repression of gluconeogenesis, the glyoxylate cycle, respiration and the uptake of less-preferred carbohydrates. Glucose and sucrose also trigger unexpected, hormone-like effects, including the activation of cellular growth, the mobilization of storage compounds and the diminution of cellular stress resistance. In an industrial context, these effects lead to several yeast-related problems, such as slow or incomplete fermentation, off flavors and poor maintenance of yeast vitality. Recent studies indicate that the use of mutants with altered responses to carbohydrates can significantly increase productivity. Alternatively, avoiding unnecessary exposure to glucose and sucrose could also improve the performance of industrial yeasts. Glucose and sucrose: hazardous fast-food for industrial yeast? Trends in Biotechnology Volume 22, Issue 10, October 2004, Pages 531-537 ​

Winner!
BCP is the definative answer.
In summary:
SG < 1060 15 min from flame out
SG > 1060 when fermentation is nearly complete

Belgian digestability, folks!

 

[bcp]

Winner!
BCP is the definative answer.
In summary:
SG < 1060 15 min from flame out
SG > 1060 when fermentation is nearly complete

Belgian digestability, folks!

Does that mean i've finally earned one of the barrels that have accumulated under my name whilst i've made dumb comments in the past?

 

[Nick JD]

There's always glucose and sucrose in your AG beer. Does that article just mean too much of it frekas out the yeast?

 

[MHB]

Winner!
BCP is the definative answer.
In summary:
SG < 1060 15 min from flame out
SG > 1060 when fermentation is nearly complete

Belgian digestability, folks!

Not a bad guideline, not cast in concrete but a good rule of thumb.

For lower gravity beers (let's say under 1.060) adding to the kettle late is a good idea because you get a bit better hop utilisation as you are boiling the hops in a lower gravity wort good to remember that when you are doing your calculations and you aren't at high enough gravities to have to be too worried about yeast stress.

Sugar additions in higher gravity beers, made into the fermenter are much more open to discussion.
My personal preference is to time the addition so that the new gravity doesn't exceed the OG. Say you were adding enough sugar to contribute 20 points make the addition when the brew has lost about 20 points. I find that making additions that lift the gravity far above the OG tends to raise the esters and you have more trouble reaching the target FG. Wait too long and the yeast struggles to get going again, again can be harder to reach the target FG.

But there are bound to be as many opinions as brewers, or more.

There's always glucose and sucrose in your AG beer. Does that article just mean too much of it frekas out the yeast?

Yes Nick
But the total for Glucose, Fructose and Sucrose together, would be in the order of 10% of extract.
In a 22.5 L wort at 1.050 that comes to a bit less than 300g, most (say 50-60%) of that is going to be Glucose.
MHB