Questions Before First Extract Brew

[Travo]

Hi all,

First time poster, I've been lurking around for a little while myself now and will be stepping back into the world of brewing this weekend after returning from overseas not all that long ago.

Having done kit brewing on and off for a few years now I thought the time was right to try my hand at an all extract brew, hopefully on my way to all grain down the track. As such I thought I'd start of with something relatively simple (i.e. no speciality grains) in the form of a standard type pale ale. The ingredients are as follows (for a 19 ltr brew):

3kg Dry Pale Malt Extract

26-27g Chinook hops

15g Cascade hops 10 mins

13g Cascade hops 0 mins

US-05 yeast

60 minute boil. I'm hoping to do a 10 ltr boil, as I'll be doing all of this in a very small apartment with an electric stove to top things off.

I'm hoping the good folk on here can help with a few questions I have.

- Can I boil 3kg of dry extract in a 10ltr boil, or is that just too ambitious? I'd prefer the boil not to have the consistency of porridge if possible . What would others suggest for a boil size? I have a 20ltr pot but both stove power and the weight the stove will support (its got a glass base) are the limiting factors here.

- I'm a little unclear on how much of the Chinook hops i should be adding and when. I was under the impression it should go in for the full 60mins of boiling time, and based on the numbers in the extract spreadsheet tool I figured about 27g would give a suitable IBU. Does this sound correct to others. Also, as far as the hops go, do people suggest putting them into some kind of food grade pouch, or straight into the boil?

I'm in the process of re-reading "how to brew" so i've got a good resource there also, so am comfortable with what has to happen on the day, but really want to sort out all these procedural questions beforehand if possible.

Unrelated to the above questions, I've also got an Oktoberfest style party coming up and was hoping to have a brew done for that too. Does anyone have any suggestions for ale type german beers that could go from extract to glass in a little under a month? I know that's pushing it time wise. Ideally if i had more time I'd try a lager, but I don't have the lead time. Ultimately if I don't have enough time to brew right I'd prefer not to do it at all, but it would be really great to have something ready to drink on the day.

Thanks,

Trav

 

[Dazza_devil]

To achieve optimum hop utilisation you will need a boil gravity of around 1.040. I believe there is a figure for the amount of LDME on the spreadsheet to achieve this.
Some people just throw the hops in,personally I use a weighted hop-sock to avoid too many hop particles in my brew and the advantage of being able to remove the majority of hop matter from the wort prior to cooling. This helps achieve more constant results.

 

[Pennywise]

What are the AA% of the hops you have? This is needed to calculate how much hops to use (as well as boil gravity/volume). I would boil 1kg of the LDME in the 10L boil, this will give you a good gravity for hop utilisation. The rest of the LDME can be added with 10-15 mins left on the boil.

 

[Shed101]

Depending on how warm your place is, you might just get away with a porter in a month ( ... and pretend it's a dark lager to those who wouldn't know better :mellow: )

A darker beer should be more forgiving cosmetically

Go for a US-05 yeast.

I know you said you don't want to, but it is really worth getting some spec. grains, it is IMHO easier than adding hops.

 

[Pennywise]

Ultimately if I don't have enough time to brew right I'd prefer not to do it at all, but it would be really great to have something ready to drink on the day.

Thanks,

Trav

Fresh Wort Kit?

Edit: Linky http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/index.php?cPath=1_16_17

 

[argon]

What are the AA% of the hops you have? This is needed to calculate how much hops to use (as well as boil gravity/volume). I would boil 1kg of the LDME in the 10L boil, this will give you a good gravity for hop utilisation. The rest of the LDME can be added with 10-15 mins left on the boil.

+1 here... 2 questions answered in 1. You really need to know you're AA of the chinook.

The chinook i have is 11.4% and the cascade 5.0%.
Ddoing a 60min boil of 10L with 1 kg extract and adding the other 2kg in the last 15mins with all those hops as listed below will give you 40IBU... not too bad considering you're looking at 1.058OG... reasonable IBU/SG of around 0.7 which is good for an APA, fairly balanced... also get you to about 5.6%ABV.

Do this and i reckon you'll have a nice drop.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Three or four hundred grams of speciality grains wouldn't go astray. Steep @ 69 degrees C in 8 litres of water for 30 mins then sparge with another 2 litres of 69 degrees C water, I use a grain bag. The resulting liquid will give you a nice liquor to boil your hops in.

Edited to say - you can alter the AA percentage of your hops in the spreadsheet if you scroll down. If you know what they are just punch them in for your resulting IBU.

 

[Pennywise]

I agree with some spec malt, go on Travo, the step to extract goes hand in hand with steeping grains, hey, you can make coffee right? Then you can steep grain, and we need that fresh grain aroma/flavour from somewhere, and it wont come from the LDME. Chuck in 3-400g of Caramalt or Medium Crystal I say

 

[Travo]

Thanks to all for all the speedy responses! I've got a few more questions as a consequence. First, before I forget, the AA% of the hops was as follows:

Cascade 5%

Chinook 11.5%

From what people have said, I should be looking to boil just over 1kg of dry extract to achieve 40 points of boil gravity for optimum hop utilisation. If I add the remaining amount 15 minutes before the boil is over, will this give it sufficient time for hot break to occur (forgive me if i'm now confusing all grain issues with extract issues, I've read a lot over the last few days)? I'm assuming that dumping 2kg of malt extract in will drop it off the boil too, so I should probably resume the boil countdown once its back on the boil.

I'm now thinking about the possibility of adding some speciality grain as folks have suggested. As an example, if i was to add 300g of Caramalt would I then adjust the amount of malt extract I've added, or will this amount not make a significant difference to the OG?

Boagsy, if I was to use the method you suggested, how do you sparge with a grain bag? Do I essentially just pour the remaining water through the bag?



Thanks again for all the responses.

Trav

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

As a long time extract brewer (now finally doing AG), have you considered liquid malt extract? I've always preferred it for no other reason that I ended up not creating porridge.

And specialty grains will add a great deal of depth to your brew without much extra effort nor expertise. Wheat (or carawheat) will add head retention and vividness, and anything "cara-" will add some nice maltiness to your brew.

As for a quick brew - use nottingham yeast - it'll ferment quicker than any other dry yeast (well that I've found), has minimal ester flavours (thus being closer to lager yeast in the character it has on a brew) and drops out of suspension well - better if you rack, but tolerable even without racking.

 

[manticle]

Unrelated to the above questions, I've also got an Oktoberfest style party coming up and was hoping to have a brew done for that too. Does anyone have any suggestions for ale type german beers that could go from extract to glass in a little under a month? I know that's pushing it time wise. Ideally if i had more time I'd try a lager, but I don't have the lead time. Ultimately if I don't have enough time to brew right I'd prefer not to do it at all, but it would be really great to have something ready to drink on the day.

Thanks,

Trav

Weizen is probably your best bet. I find APAs often need less conditioning time but that's hardly german. Weizen is best fresh. A little under a month is pushing it but possible.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Thanks to all for all the speedy responses! I've got a few more questions as a consequence. First, before I forget, the AA% of the hops was as follows:

Cascade 5%

Chinook 11.5%

From what people have said, I should be looking to boil just over 1kg of dry extract to achieve 40 points of boil gravity for optimum hop utilisation. If I add the remaining amount 15 minutes before the boil is over, will this give it sufficient time for hot break to occur (forgive me if i'm now confusing all grain issues with extract issues, I've read a lot over the last few days)? I'm assuming that dumping 2kg of malt extract in will drop it off the boil too, so I should probably resume the boil countdown once its back on the boil.

I'm now thinking about the possibility of adding some speciality grain as folks have suggested. As an example, if i was to add 300g of Caramalt would I then adjust the amount of malt extract I've added, or will this amount not make a significant difference to the OG?

Boagsy, if I was to use the method you suggested, how do you sparge with a grain bag? Do I essentially just pour the remaining water through the bag?



Thanks again for all the responses.

Trav

Trav, this is my grain steeping technique,

Heat 8 litres of water in a big enough pot to 69 degrees C. I have another big enough pot at the ready lined with my grain bag.
Add the speciality grains to the 69 degree water put the lid on and soak for 30 mins, stir it occasionally if you want.
When done I tip the grains and water into my grain bag lined pot. Draw the bag in at the top, lift and allow the majority of the contained liquor to drip from the bag.
Place the bag of grain in a pot big enough to hold it and 2 litres of water.
Tip 2 litres of 69 degrees C water over the bag and grain then do a little jiggling like a tea bag.
Dispose of the grain and combine all the liquor in the big enough pot.
Bring this liquid to the boil, including the required amount of LDME (or LME) to achieve a boil gravity of 1.040.
After the hot break continue with your hop schedule.

There are many ways to skin this cat, this is my chosen and tried way.
Hope this helps.
If you are using IanH's spreadsheet it will do the LDME amount calculations for your boil gravity inclusive of your steeped grains, which do contribute a small amount.

Forgot to mention - I don't add the remainder of my LDME toward the end of the boil for the very reason you mention. It stops the boil and the liquor can become very viscous depending on your recipe. This can lead to problems if it clogs up in your hop sock. What I do is boil up the remaining malt for at least 10 mins in a seperate pot with enough water to dissolve it. If you do it early on in the brewing process you can have it nicely coooled in a water bath so your pitching temp will be more easily acheived.

 

[Pennywise]

From what people have said, I should be looking to boil just over 1kg of dry extract to achieve 40 points of boil gravity for optimum hop utilisation. If I add the remaining amount 15 minutes before the boil is over, will this give it sufficient time for hot break to occur (forgive me if i'm now confusing all grain issues with extract issues, I've read a lot over the last few days)? I'm assuming that dumping 2kg of malt extract in will drop it off the boil too, so I should probably resume the boil countdown once its back on the boil.

I wouldn't worry about hot/cold break, as far as I'm aware it's not an issue with extracts (especially liquid I'd say because it's specifically made for brewing) as it's been removed during production.

Yes 2kg will stop the wort from boiling, but only for a few mins so we don't really need to worry about this. Of course if you want to stop/start the timer then go for it, but in any case I'd pick one way to do it and stick to that.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I wouldn't worry about hot/cold break, as far as I'm aware it's not an issue with extracts (especially liquid I'd say because it's specifically made for brewing) as it's been removed during production.

Perhaps I'm confusing hot-break with something else.
When my liquor, that has had LDME added and grains steeped in it, first boils it tends to froth up a fair bit. This soon subsides and I continue with my hop schedule.

Stopping the wort from boiling for a few minutes by adding LDME may be influential if you have 10 min or 5 min hop additions. I tried it once, never again, my hop sock clogged up with the stuff, just a sticky mess combined with hop matter and it went off the boil for quite sometime at a very influential part of the schedual. It has to effect your hop flavour and aroma additions. Stopping and starting the timer may not be an effective remedy for boil time either because the wort will still be at a high temperature before it boils which may still be adding flavour, aroma and some amount of bitterness.

 

[Pennywise]

I tried it once, never again, my hop sock clogged up with the stuff, just a sticky mess combined with hop matter

Yeah I wouldn't add more dry malt when there's a hop sock in the mix, part of the reason I don't use one .

OP, you can add all the malt at the start if you want but keep in mind you'll most likely use twice the hops. No drama really, I do this with my AG's because I only have the (sensible) capacity to boil 12.5L. Another way around it is you could do a short boil in a different pot for the rest of the LDME.

 

[Dazza_devil]

What I do is boil up the remaining malt for at least 10 mins in a seperate pot with enough water to dissolve it. If you do it early on in the brewing process you can have it nicely coooled in a water bath so your pitching temp will be more easily acheived.

Another way around it is you could do a short boil in a different pot for the rest of the LDME.

Good thinking 99

 

[Travo]

Thanks guys, looks like some spec grain will go into this one then

Rather than leave it all to chance, I threw 10 litres of water on the stove last night to see whether I could even get a vigorous boil going. Took a long time to get up to temp, but eventually the little electric stove got there. Hopefully I can still get a good boil going when the extract is added. Will definitely have to look at a better setup going forward as I don't want these types of problems if/when I go to all grain :icon_cheers:

If I do as suggested and boil the remaining extract in another pot, how much water do you guys typically dissolve it in?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Thanks guys, looks like some spec grain will go into this one then

Rather than leave it all to chance, I threw 10 litres of water on the stove last night to see whether I could even get a vigorous boil going. Took a long time to get up to temp, but eventually the little electric stove got there. Hopefully I can still get a good boil going when the extract is added. Will definitely have to look at a better setup going forward as I don't want these types of problems if/when I go to all grain :icon_cheers:

If I do as suggested and boil the remaining extract in another pot, how much water do you guys typically dissolve it in?

I used to put on rubber gloves (thicker the better) and boil the kettle, sit the unhopped extract tin in a container/bucket of hot water up to it's lid lip (but not over), so that the liquid was runnier. Then pour it into the boiling pot (which was boiling with the required amount of water. Then used the kettle again, poured into the tin and swooshed and swooshed until the remaining dregs of extract were dissolved and put it into the boil pot.

I used to do about 15 Litres (i was never very exact) and boiled the extract in it.

Try putting the lid on. I'll probably start a flame war saying this, but I find with my electrical stove that it works better. My 2 x 19L Big W are fine on the stove for a fullsize AG BIAB (or BIAJ, according to some).

 

[Dazza_devil]

If I do as suggested and boil the remaining extract in another pot, how much water do you guys typically dissolve it in?

Depends how much LDME you have to dissolve but I reckon 2 litres would be enough to dissolve 2kg, probably less. I did one recipe that had 3 kgs of LDME and 1 kg of dex to dissolve seperately which required a further addition of water because it got a bit sticky and lumpy. Keep your eye on it if you put the lid on, it has the potential to froth up everwhere and leave a bloody sticky mess, not good if it get's in under your hot plates and down the side of your oven.

 

[Travo]

Just thought I'd provide everyone with an update on how my first extract brew went. Given my small apartment and the lack of available space I had to do this I thought I'd type out my process for the benefit of others in the same situation.

Night before brew day
1. boiled 12 litres of water and transfered it into a sanitised container to cool overnight to room temperature. Boiling that quantity of stuff (water, wort or otherwise) on my stove takes forever, so give yourself plenty of time if you are using a crap electric stove.

Brew day
1. Sanitised fermenter and other required equipment, strainer, thermometer, spoon etc...

2. Steeped grain in boil pot in 8 litres of 66 degree celcius water. Used a grain bag for this. Steeping caramalt smells great, gives you a sense of what brewing all grain must be like. Followed Boagsy's instructions for sparging the grain in an additional 2 litres brought up to temperature in a second pot.

3. Transferred the 2 litres of sparged water into the pot with the rest of the wort and added dried malt extract to the amount indicated by IanH's spreadsheet (a brilliant spreadsheet it is). The amount for me was approx 930g. This amount dissolved easily into 10 litres. Chucked a lid on the pot and cranked up the stove to get the boil going.

4. Once the boil was going, added hops according to the schedule - Chinook for 60 mins, half of the Cascae at 10 mins, and half at flame (electric element?) out. About a third of the way into the boil I also added the remaining approx 2kgs of malt extract into another pot with 2 litres of water and brought to the boil. In the future I'll probably do this in slightly more water as it got a little hard to dissolve towards the end.

5. As the small pot was finished first, it was boiled for 15 mins and thrown into a sink full of icy water and brought down to about 27 degrees. Took about 15 mins or so. Once this had cooled sufficiently it was thrown into the fermenter through a strainer to aerate it, and to limit the gunk that got into it, and the same process was undertaken with the larger wort pot. This one took more like half an hour to cool.

6. While cooling the pots I reconstituted the yeast in a separate sanitised jug with warm water. This was left to activate for about 30 minutes while the large pot cooled.

7. Once all the wort was transferred, the fermenter was topped up with sanitised room temperature water to the fermentation volume, and the yeast pitched (temp was around 26 degrees at pitching I think). Measured original gravity of 1064, which I think it quite high for an IPA style, but probably due to the fact that my ferment volume is 20L and could've been diluted some. Something to consider next time anyway.

Seems to be bubbling away nicely now, so that's a relief.

Only issues were:
- I had was with one boilover of the smaller pot due to trying to get the temp up with the lid on. I stepped away to show a mate IanH's spreadsheet and sure enough it went all over the stove. Still cleaning it off today...
- Lid mustn't have been on tight enough to begin with as the airlock had no activity for about 8 hours despite a fairly healthy krausen forming. Tightened the lid and seems to be all good now.

The other thing I wasn't sure about was how much of the residual material to hold back from the fermenter from the boil pot. I was pretty conservative and let very little of the thicker gunkier stuff in (probably lost a little wort in the process too). I'm not sure if this was a mistake or not.

Anyway, thanks to all for the assistance beforehand with my queries. I hoped that by writing up my process someone may benefit from it down the track. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it drinks once its ready. At this stage I'm thinking two weeks in the fermenter and probably the same in the bottle before I crack one open to see how it looks. I'll be putting plenty aside to see how it improves over time however.

Cheers,

Travo