Queensland.....the dictator state..?

[brewtas]

The family of an innocent bystander aren't in a good place to comment on laws. There are already laws in place to deal with the situation without adding new ones that have plenty of scope for abuse.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

And its the element of abuse that is the problem. The government is now dictating to the judicary.

The Judicary are supposed to be seperate from government. That is one of the fundamentals of law and government.

The government can state that "insert group here" are a criminal organisation without any need or form of proof and Judges cannot queastion this. They must sentance based on what the law says, regardless if the Judge sees that the law is incorrect.

Hypotheticaly: How would you feel as a home brewer if the government said you are not able to have meetings because they deem it as a criminal group simply because Joe Bloggs kicked up a stink about some drunken brewers at a meeting and it could be percived that you may be involved in criminal activity. It maybe completly legal etc, but the government does not need any proof to say that your club meeting is not an ilegall activity.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Did you read the article?

Yeah mate.

 

[manticle]

Then you would see that it applies to more than just people who belong to drug dealing, outlawed organisations.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Quote: "State Secretary Peter Simpson said members with links to criminal motorcycle gangs had begun to raise concerns with him.............................."

Couldn't see any mention of home brewing clubs in the article.

 

[browndog]

And its the element of abuse that is the problem. The government is now dictating to the judicary.

The Judicary are supposed to be seperate from government. That is one of the fundamentals of law and government.

The government can state that "insert group here" are a criminal organisation without any need or form of proof and Judges cannot queastion this. They must sentance based on what the law says, regardless if the Judge sees that the law is incorrect.

Hypotheticaly: How would you feel as a home brewer if the government said you are not able to have meetings because they deem it as a criminal group simply because Joe Bloggs kicked up a stink about some drunken brewers at a meeting and it could be percived that you may be involved in criminal activity. It maybe completly legal etc, but the government does not need any proof to say that your club meeting is not an ilegall activity.

Don't worry Stu, it is not 1938, I think law abiding citizens will be OK, even home brewers (as long as they don't have links to outlaw motorcycle gangs)

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I can understand your point Browndog, yes, they get up and say " These laws are only designed for bikies", the point is that the way they are written is very broad. Sure, we can be cynical and say "yeah but we are law abiding citizens", but what happens when they start to use the laws beyond the realm of "they are designed for bikies". The legislation affords the government to be able to do this.

Dont get me wrong. I am not a bikie,dont mix and dont care. My point is about the underlying power of an elected government to start branding people and groups at will, without scrutiny or evidence.

 

[browndog]

I can understand your point Browndog, yes, they get up and say " These laws are only designed for bikies", the point is that the way they are written is very broad. Sure, we can be cynical and say "yeah but we are law abiding citizens", but what happens when they start to use the laws beyond the realm of "they are designed for bikies". The legislation affords the government to be able to do this.

Dont get me wrong. I am not a bikie,dont mix and dont care. My point is about the underlying power of an elected government to start branding people and groups at will, without scrutiny or evidence.

It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about **** going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho ******* out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,
While they are at it, mandatory life sentence for the coward punchers that kill people.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Quote: "State Secretary Peter Simpson said members with links to criminal motorcycle gangs had begun to raise concerns with him.............................."

Couldn't see any mention of home brewing clubs in the article.

So what if they did

They legislation does not make mention of bikies. Simply because they know they cant do that.

Just because "Home Brewers" are not mentioned, does not automaticaly exclude us, or the local RSL Bowls club from the action of the law.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about **** going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho ******* out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,

The "Bikie laws" are not going to stop some macho ******* from harming your kids on a night out.

Even you know that

 

[philmud]

Don't worry Stu, it is not 1938, I think law abiding citizens will be OK, even home brewers (as long as they don't have links to outlaw motorcycle gangs)

If you're happy to have such potentially powerful legislation in the hands of people who tell you to trust them to do the right thing with it, then I reckon you're naive. If they had intended it not to be available for other applications, they'd have been more specific. As others have said, there are existing laws to deal with crimes that bikies commit.

 

[manticle]

It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about **** going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho ******* out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,
While they are at it, mandatory life sentence for the coward punchers that kill people.

So if an electrician doesn't get his license, your kids will be made safer from the temptation to take drugs?

Your kids won't get punched up?

Drugs and punching people up are already illegal. This won't make your kids any safer and 2013 or not, politicians still regularly try and pass legislation that makes no sense.

I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the poor bikie gangs should just be left alone to deal methamphetamine to teenagers - just questioning the efficacy of this legislation in actually combatting that.

 

[bradsbrew]

This is just my opinion but I see it as a government that is just shutting down a section of the community that has caused more harm than good. Its a strike against known illegal activity, the only "naive" people are the ones that think the criminal bikie gangs are being hard done by. All they are doing is making a certain corridor for illegal activity very uncomfortable just like that group has made many people uncomfortable for a long time. The gold coast is ****** because of the different gangs and drug trade that has been allowed to get to the level it is at because of loopholes and corruption.
I see that the laws have been written so as that certain groups cannot claim that they are being victimized, if the people writing these laws stated bikies, bikies , bikies that just enables them to claim they are being victimized. These gangs have a great legal team and can afford it due to the illegal dealings.
If these laws were used for a local club that was anything other than a CBG the government would be gone very quickly. People seem to forget very quickly that the christmas bikie run for the childrens hospital was done same as every other year under these new laws.

 

[browndog]

If you're happy to have such potentially powerful legislation in the hands of people who tell you to trust them to do the right thing with it, then I reckon you're naive. If they had intended it not to be available for other applications, they'd have been more specific. As others have said, there are existing laws to deal with crimes that bikies commit.

I'm naive, that made me chuckle.

 

[browndog]

The "Bikie laws" are not going to stop some macho ******* from harming your kids on a night out.

Even you know that

I should have said "macho ******* on drugs" The bikies are selling the drugs that these jerks are buying Stu.

 

[browndog]

So if an electrician doesn't get his license, your kids will be made safer from the temptation to take drugs?

Your kids won't get punched up?

Drugs and punching people up are already illegal. This won't make your kids any safer and 2013 or not, politicians still regularly try and pass legislation that makes no sense.

I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the poor bikie gangs should just be left alone to deal methamphetamine to teenagers - just questioning the efficacy of this legislation in actually combatting that.

The current laws are not working ..... harsher measures are needed, or the courts start doing their job. Stu has already complained of political interference with the courts. If they won't up hold the law then bring in harsher laws.

 

[manticle]

I don't understand how these laws do anything whatsoever to target the drug trade.

The problem is not lack of laws. There's no loophole that allows bikies to sell drugs to schoolkids or old women in homes and making new laws that are entirely irrelevant to enforcing the original laws does nothing.

If laws are being broken, enforce them - don't write new ones to look like you are doing something.

The emotive arguments about people being gunned down in shopping centres are all well and good but does this bit of legislation do ANYTHING whatsoever to prevent that? Shooting people is already illegal. This law is about preventing people getting their trade licenses renewed.

2 questions.

What is this legislation trying to achieve?
Will it be effective in achieving that outcome?

3rd question would be 'is there a better way of trying to do that?' but I'm happy to stick to 2 for now.

@browndog - it's not the laws that aren't working - it's the processes around enforcing those - whether policing, prosecution, sentencing, whatever. Writing new laws rather than fixing the processes around existing ones is counter intuitive. It's political mileage being made by people who want to look like they are taking action rather than actually taking it.

Laws against shooting people aren't working so we'll stop people who may know someone with a gun from being able to purchase eggs. That'll show 'em.

I still want to know how this particular law is going to make any difference to whether or not your kids get offered drugs or are at risk of assault.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I should have said "macho ******* on drugs" The bikies are selling the drugs that these jerks are buying Stu.

It would be great if it was just the bikies selling the drugs. Unfortunatly its not, and the drugs are allways going to be sold.

Even the police know that its not the bikies responsible for the majority of drug distribution. Its because they are "noticable" that causes the percieved problem

They are an easy target. And politicians like easy targets.

 

[browndog]

The gov. obviously know more than we do about what the bikies are up to. Otherwise, why would they be targeting poor old tradies? Anything the government does to get rid of associations that rely on the drug trade for income is going to make the world a safer place for my kids. Less drug ****** people walking around the streets at night.. the safer my kids will be when they are old enough to go out on their own. How hard is that to comprehend?

 

[bradsbrew]

Manticle,Q1. in QLD the drug trade is pretty much fed by the CBG's, yes you get your independent dealer that has grown his own or whatever but the majority can be traced back to them. The CBG's have fought for their business for a long time, without going into to much detail I remember a certain "roundhouse" in mackay having a shoot out around 1996/7 between the renegades, rebels and odens. They all wanted one thing, guess what that was. much the same as recent activity between 2 CBG's on the road to bribie island, another shootout.
Its all about stomping out the violence and the business associated with wholesale drug trafficing, drugs will always be around and people will always choose whether or not they will be a stoner or a junkie. The legislation has allowed the law the freedom to do what they can to stop a major player in this trade.
Yes, it could be seen that they are just sending the gangs underground, but that does slow them down. Have not heard of a bikie war or clubhouse bombing/burning since the new laws were introduced either.
Hopefully Q2 will be answered in due time.