QldKev's New Biab With Internal Rims

[QldKev]

Some may have noticed about me talking about my new system I've been toying with for single batches, called my 'experimental system'. While I love using my 3V, the smallest batch I've done so far is a 69L brew, great for bulk house beer but not so good for things like a weizen or lambic where 1 cube is plenty, and not good for a new recipe idea trial run. I wanted the system to make brewing as easy as possible, to keep the fun in it. I though about going back to a normal BIAB setup, but really wanted to do step mashes because that's what I do on the main system and in recipe development I want to emulate on this system. I looked at the Braumeister builds, whilst excellent systems was a bit more complex than I wanted. Even back in March 2010 I was talking about BIAB with HERMS, so I though why not proceed. Whilst I prefer HERMS over RIMS, I though an internal RIMS setup can double as the heating element for the boil. The build began. Most parts were older parts from my other brewery builds, all I purchased was a pump, one T piece and a 15" pizza tray.

Today I'm running my first brew in the system

BIAB bag sitting above a false bottom to ensure the bag cannot touch the heating element.


Inital recirc, while I build the return arm. Temp probe just shoved in outlet.


Return arm in place. Here you can see there are 2 return lines, one from the top for the recirc, and one below the false bottom to keep the wort moving past the element. The pump moved about 14Lmin, with about 4L returning from the top and the rest to the bottom.


Pic showing wort clarified up nicely. The return arm is almost an inch under wort level and looks crystal clear.


To keep things easy the system is a no-sparge system. But what wort drains from the bag is thrown back into the kettle, so you could argue it's a 2V system as I have a bucket to catch the runnings from the bag. Today I did a simple Aussie Gold brew following the normal stepped mash I use for it. I hit 86.2% pre-boil efficiency, which is virtually the same I get on my 3V, so it will make expectations of the beer pretty good for converting to the bigger system; I'm pretty happy with that.



QldKev

 

[Dan Pratt]

Nice work Kev, looks like a nifty little rig>

What was your step mash schedule?

Also, can you show us a look at the pump plumbing too?

Dan

 

[QldKev]

Nice work Kev, looks like a nifty little rig>

What was your step mash schedule?

Also, can you show us a look at the pump plumbing too?

Dan

Here's the technical specification I drew for the flow :lol:


For a better view of the plumbing check it out on and

The mash schedule was
60 - 5mins (normally I use 55, I chickened out not wanting a burnt RIMS element on the first brew)
62 - 45mins
68 - 20mins (normally I would be more 72, but didn't want too full of a beer)
78 - 5mins

QldKev

 

[QldKev]

Had a play with the 1V today.

I've added a temp probe ready for matho's controller. (cable sticking out the front, still waiting on ebay to send XLR plugs for it.)
Washed the insulation, and re-installed it.
Hacked up a 19L pot ready to replace the bag.


The 1V

Bottom of the 19L pot with the false bottom setup. The 4 holes are going to have bolts through them for the legs.

One day I'll replace the old brass fittings for blingy stainless.


QldKev

 

[breakbeer]

Hi Kev,

I like the pot with the slits cut into the bottom of it, do you just use it as is or is there some kind of mesh on the inside?

 

[QldKev]

I've only just cut it today, but the plan is to use no other mesh/bag at all. The mash tun on my 3V uses a slotted false bottom exactly the same, using the same cut off wheel size, so I don't see any issues with the 1V working.

Pic of the 3V bottom.

 

[QldKev]

Giving the updated system a run today. Changes are Matho's controller and also the 19L pot to replace the bag.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csTZUDc4WZI&feature=youtu.be

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXVBNKjS3gs&feature=youtu.be


So far all is good for it's maiden run.

 

[Bats]

Well done QldKev.

You've given me some ideas.

 

[joshF]

Qldkev you stole my idea/setup!!!! (just kidding, i stole my idea from someone on homebrewtalk :lol: )

Looks really good mate. I've got all the bits and pieces to make mathos controller except the shield, lcd and a few other bits so i can't wait to finally run it with the controller!

For those looking at a recirculating kind of BIAB setup i've attached some more pics to give some ideas to other members. Its very similar to qldkevs and as he said, the wort clarity ends up nice and clear.

Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.




qldkev let me know what you end up doing for the return arm so i can steal your idea! Even though it works awesomely, the sprinkler is probably only a temporary measure

 

[QldKev]

Qldkev you stole my idea/setup!!!! (just kidding, i stole my idea from someone on homebrewtalk :lol: )

Looks really good mate. I've got all the bits and pieces to make mathos controller except the shield, lcd and a few other bits so i can't wait to finally run it with the controller!

For those looking at a recirculating kind of BIAB setup i've attached some more pics to give some ideas to other members. Its very similar to qldkevs and as he said, the wort clarity ends up nice and clear.

Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.




qldkev let me know what you end up doing for the return arm so i can steal your idea! Even though it works awesomely, the sprinkler is probably only a temporary measure

Funny thing is back in early 2010 I was going to convert my BIAB to this type of setup with HERMS , but the 3V bug kicked in and got the priority. It's just not I've done a lot of my 3V (never will be finished lol) I've started tinkering with this setup again.

edit:
The return arm will most likely stay with what was in the videos. I believe if you have enough flow the wort will mix by the currents on top of the grain bed.

 

[eresh666]

KEv,

Any restriction on the brew size when using the 19L bigw as a 'malt pipe'? I'm interested in modifying my keggle to work similar to these (batch size 20-26L).

 

[QldKev]

I think there will be a restriction. Batch Size + target OG + efficiency will determine what you can brew.

I made a Falconers Flight yesterday with 28L into the cube, a target gravity of only 1.041, I dialed up 85% mash efficiency and hit 87.3%. This required 4.25kg of grain.

I did not really check how full of grain the 19L pot was. I think about 5kg of grain would be the maximum you could comfortably fit, but I'm not that sure.

If I use 28L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.041 beer.
If I use 23L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.051 beer.

If I use 28L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.047 beer. (that's about 4.8% abv)
If I use 23L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.058 beer. (that's about 5.9% abv, I can't remember last time I brewed this high)
If I use 20L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.066 beer. (that's about 6.8% abv)


I'm thinking of brewing another beer later today, maybe I should run a full strength through it to see what 5kg does and pay more attention to how full the 19L pot is.

 

[Beerisyummy]

KEv,

Any restriction on the brew size when using the 19L bigw as a 'malt pipe'? I'm interested in modifying my keggle to work similar to these (batch size 20-26L).

If QK's setup works anything like mine I'd say you max out at around 5.5kg of grain. Beyond that the mash efficiency drops off very quickly.

I'll get some shots of my setup when I have the time so we can share some findings QK. Mine doesn't use a bag as such but the theory is the same.

 

[j-dunn]

Mine's an urn with a big w pot inside, still using a grainbag aswell for a bit extra filtering and a bunnings sprinkler screwed under the lid of the urn so as to not upset the grain bed too much.


Hi Josh
Having the sprinkler returning the liquid, is there any worry of the hot liquid being Aerated and makin the brew taste like crap?

Cheers
Joe

 

[nala]

I think there will be a restriction. Batch Size + target OG + efficiency will determine what you can brew.

I made a Falconers Flight yesterday with 28L into the cube, a target gravity of only 1.041, I dialed up 85% mash efficiency and hit 87.3%. This required 4.25kg of grain.

I did not really check how full of grain the 19L pot was. I think about 5kg of grain would be the maximum you could comfortably fit, but I'm not that sure.

If I use 28L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.041 beer.
If I use 23L batch, 75% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.051 beer.

If I use 28L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.047 beer. (that's about 4.8% abv)
If I use 23L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.058 beer. (that's about 5.9% abv, I can't remember last time I brewed this high)
If I use 20L batch, 85% eff, 5kg grain will allow me a 1.066 beer. (that's about 6.8% abv)


I'm thinking of brewing another beer later today, maybe I should run a full strength through it to see what 5kg does and pay more attention to how full the 19L pot is.

Kev, I can only dream about getting anywhere near your efficiency numbers !
I too have a recirculating mashing system.
The problems I face are ; getting the flow of wort through the grain bed, I would like to achieve 3/4 litres per minute.
; I crush my grain using a 1.5mm gap between the rollers.
; I mash at 66oC for 1.5 hours.
; Sparge at 75oC
I have tried numerous false bottom's, 12" perforated, copper tube with holes, copper tube with slots, all results are the same.
The last brew I experimented by sieving the grist and doughing in with coarse grains first followed by the finer particles, made very little difference to the wort flow rate. Certainly no difference to the efficiency.
Getting a BigW pot today and will copy your excellent engineering example, watch this space !

 

[joshF]

Hi Josh
Having the sprinkler returning the liquid, is there any worry of the hot liquid being Aerated and makin the brew taste like crap?

Cheers
Joe

Hey Joe,
Not from what i've experienced so far although i do have the output throttled back quite alot and i've since drilled 6 holes in the sprinkler head so its more of a continuous stream than a spray. I originally set it up just as a cheap fix but it worked OK so I just left it as is. Looking for a better solution though now

 

[QldKev]

Kev, I can only dream about getting anywhere near your efficiency numbers !
I too have a recirculating mashing system.
The problems I face are ; getting the flow of wort through the grain bed, I would like to achieve 3/4 litres per minute.
; I crush my grain using a 1.5mm gap between the rollers.
; I mash at 66oC for 1.5 hours.
; Sparge at 75oC
I have tried numerous false bottom's, 12" perforated, copper tube with holes, copper tube with slots, all results are the same.
The last brew I experimented by sieving the grist and doughing in with coarse grains first followed by the finer particles, made very little difference to the wort flow rate. Certainly no difference to the efficiency.
Getting a BigW pot today and will copy your excellent engineering example, watch this space !

Don't get too stuck up on the efficiency topic. Remember when you started making AG you said you wanted to make good beer, you didn't say you want good efficiency. Using a 5% abv in a 23L batch there is only about 0.55 kg difference in grain between 75% and 85% mash efficiency.

What mill / sized rollers do you have? 1.5mm is a pretty big gap. I'm thinking this could be a huge issue for efficiency. My mates mill has 102mm diameter rollers and he runs that type of gap. On my Monster mill MM2 with 38mm diameter rollers I use 0.9mm. I keep the same setting for both my 1V and 3V setups. How are you powering the mill?

If you've tried all types of bottoms and braid, I'm thinking the change to the pot may not be the answer you are looking for. It may help other things though.

Not that it would help your mash efficiency, but you have 4.5L deadspace. That would kill your overall brewhouse efficiency.

 

[QldKev]

Hey Joe,
Not from what i've experienced so far although i do have the output throttled back quite alot and i've since drilled 6 holes in the sprinkler head so its more of a continuous stream than a spray. I originally set it up just as a cheap fix but it worked OK so I just left it as is. Looking for a better solution though now

I find you don't need a really flash return system, just return the wort in a way it mixes with the top layer.

 

[j-dunn]

Regards to the "malt pot", I have a 60lt pot that i BIAB in, how big a pot would be suitable?

Currently I use a basket(crab cooker) with the bag in it.

I have toyed with the idea of recirculating the mash via cam lock (50mm) up through the grain bed as per braumiester system.

Cheers

 

[nala]

Don't get too stuck up on the efficiency topic. Remember when you started making AG you said you wanted to make good beer, you didn't say you want good efficiency. Using a 5% abv in a 23L batch there is only about 0.55 kg difference in grain between 75% and 85% mash efficiency.

What mill / sized rollers do you have? 1.5mm is a pretty big gap. I'm thinking this could be a huge issue for efficiency. My mates mill has 102mm diameter rollers and he runs that type of gap. On my Monster mill MM2 with 38mm diameter rollers I use 0.9mm. I keep the same setting for both my 1V and 3V setups. How are you powering the mill?

If you've tried all types of bottoms and braid, I'm thinking the change to the pot may not be the answer you are looking for. It may help other things though.

Not that it would help your mash efficiency, but you have 4.5L deadspace. That would kill your overall brewhouse efficiency.

You are correct to quote me as saying " I prefer to make good beer", I also think that there is a correlation between efficiency and getting a good wort flow through the grain bed. My issues are around the wort flow through the grain bed, I believe that with any recirculating system....HERMS, RIMS, WORMS BIAB, BUCKET BIAB, it is essential to get a good wort flow.
I am aiming to get 3 - 4 litres per minute this is why I am trying to get a good crush from the mill, hence my 1.5 mm gap.
I have a 2 roller mill powered by a high torque drill at a very low speed.
The pump I use is a Brown pump which is capable of 6 litres per minute, this is more than adequate for the job, I see others recommending March pumps, the issue is definitely not the pump,when I did trials like your video using water I get superb ramp times and have perfect temperature control on all stages. When I put grain into the mash tun the flow rate obviously drops dramatically. This is the area in which I am hoping to improve, I have done 73 all grain brews over the last couple of years, some were BIAB, some were WORMS BIAB, others were either BUCKET BIAB or conventional single infusion mash.
I abandoned WORMS and BUCKET because I could not get the flow to produce a good and consistent temperature within the grain bed. The analogy I use to describe what I am after is ; when water is poured through a course gravel bed their is little resistance to flow, pour the same water through compacted sand and you have poor or no flow. I suppose in some ways I am trying to create perpetual motion !
I continue to spend copious amounts of money on trials with the hope that some day I will hit on something that works to a better extent to what I have tried up to date.
I do have ideas of my own but this forum is a great source of good ideas, yours included.