Promash Batch Size Confusion

[Yorg]

So is the batch size when designing a recipe in Promash the volume at the end of boil - pre chilled? Or is it after the 4% shrinkage post chill? Or is it after losses to the fermenter or what? I found this once, but can't find it again and have blown too many brain cells to remember.

 

[mika]

Post Boil, prior to shrinkage as I understand it. But then I can't get my pre-boil and post boil efficiency to line up, so I might be talking nonsense :huh:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Post Boil, prior to shrinkage as I understand it. But then I can't get my pre-boil and post boil efficiency to line up, so I might be talking nonsense :huh:

Yep post boil, pretty much prior to shrinkage (nasty word) assuming you have the lock batch size to wort size option selected. Basically its so the numbers in your pre-boil and post boil will line up (except for mika...)

All the sugar that went into your kettle - is still in your kettle at the end of the boil. So for the purposes of mash efficiency and working out your recipes, you are looking at post boil being your batch size.

What you lose to trub, spill on the floor, put into your fermentor, lose to yeast, manage to get into bottles ... all up to you and how you do it. But you need a figure to work out your recipe from, and post boil is the last place to do it without "random" losses effecting the equations.

To be perfectly honest - the water required and the way the system works out efficiency in the "session" is all a bit of a pain in the bum - I rarely use it and work mainly off the recipe page. Getting ahandle on how that works will serve you best initially, you can muck about with the brewing session feature later on when you have worked the program out a bit better.

At least - thats how I make it work for me. I'm probably doing it all wrong.

Thirsty

 

[Tony]

The little question mark on every Promash page is the best way to learn all about it.

It is written in a simple easy to follow way that explains every aspect of the page you are on in the program

Here is what it says about the batch size bit:



Batch Size

Size of the batch the recipe calls for and represents the final volume of beer you intend to achieve. As an example, you receive a recipe that calls for a final volume of 5 Gallons. Thus, 5 Gallons is your batch size.

Note also that the Batch size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. The pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil size should be before boiling and evaporation losses. For details on how pre-boil amounts are calculated see the Pre-Boil Calculator.



Sounds like post boil, post chilling (shrinkage). Thats how i work it out anyway.

I look at it as the volume to the fermenter.

hope this helps

cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The little question mark on every Promash page is the best way to learn all about it.

It is written in a simple easy to follow way that explains every aspect of the page you are on in the program

Here is what it says about the batch size bit:



Batch Size

Size of the batch the recipe calls for and represents the final volume of beer you intend to achieve. As an example, you receive a recipe that calls for a final volume of 5 Gallons. Thus, 5 Gallons is your batch size.

Note also that the Batch size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. The pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil size should be before boiling and evaporation losses. For details on how pre-boil amounts are calculated see the Pre-Boil Calculator.



Sounds like post boil, post chilling (shrinkage). Thats how i work it out anyway.

I look at it as the volume to the fermenter.

hope this helps

cheers

Unless you lock the batch size to wort size, which is what I think most people do, its certainly what was recommended to me - its a lot more complex a program to use if you dont, or at least I found it so.

 

[Tony]

Ok..... i had a look and found this. looks like the batch size is still the final volume required for the beer.

Wort size is for extract brewers when you disolve the extract in a smaller volume than your final volume and top it up in the fermenter. ITs for calculation hop utalisation in the different gravity wort to what the final volume will be


Here is what the help says:

Default Sizes and System Type:

Default Batch Size:

Set this value to the batch size, ( i.e. 5 gallons), to reflect the batch size you most commonly brew. This default can be altered in any recipe and/or brewing session record.

This number represents the batch recipe's calls for and represents the final volume of beer you intend to achieve. As an example, you receive a recipe that calls for a final volume of 5 Gallons. Thus, 5 Gallons is your batch size.

Note also that the Batch size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. The pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil size should be before boiling and evaporation losses.

Default Wort Size:

Set this value to the volume of wort, ( i.e. 5 gallons), to reflect the wort volume you most commonly boil.

This entry is only primarily for extract or partial mash brewers (all grain brewers or brewers who do full wort boils can safely de-activate the feature). This is because it is quite common for some extract brewers to only boil a concentrated portion of wort, and add that to water to achieve the desired Batch Size. Because this can be crucial in properly determining the hop utilization in a boil and IBU's obtained, the Wort Size entry is a standard feature with extract and partial mash recipes. The Wort Size is the amount of actual wort boiled, while the Batch Size is the size of the final recipe.

Additionally, the Wort Size entry should never be set higher than the batch size entry. This is a common mistake, in that a brewer will start with say 5.3 gallons and boil down to 5.0. However, your wort size should always be equal to or less than the batch size, which should be the final size (before adjusting for losses due to kettle deadspace, etc.). The reason we do allow this number to go higher is because in very specific circumstances, expert brewers will use this field as a 'reverse dilution' field.

Note also that the Wort size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. However, when this entry is active the pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil wort size should be before boiling and evaporation losses.

 

[dr K]

I am with Thirsty Boy on both his observations.
Pro-Mash (and BeerSmith) are great little packages and great tools, I have used both extensively but you must use them and not they you.
K

 

[mika]

You generally lose stuff all to 'Shrinkage', so you can use Batch size as post boil, post chill UNLESS you have entered losses for chiller or in the kettle.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

ahhh we are essentially loudly agreeing then -

if you look at a chunk I snipped from Tony's post of sections from the pro-mash help files

". . . . Additionally, the Wort Size entry should never be set higher than the batch size entry. This is a common mistake, in that a brewer will start with say 5.3 gallons and boil down to 5.0. However, your wort size should always be equal to or less than the batch size, which should be the final size (before adjusting for losses due to kettle deadspace, etc.). The reason we do allow this number to go higher is because in very specific circumstances, expert brewers will use this field as a 'reverse dilution' field. . . . ."

It looks like when prior to that the help files say that batch size is the "final" amount you are trying to end up with - they dont actually mean really finally final.... just the "final" amount in the kettle - or the post boil volume

So we are all more or less all saying the same thing - its just pro-mash's terminology that is screwing us around

Thirsty

 

[Yorg]

OK,
In short:
Batch Size in Promash = Volume at knockout.
Right????

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I suppose, I dont use the term knockout, so I'm not sure what you mean -

I meant the volume in the kettle when you have turned the heat off, but not really done anything else. Maybe cooled I s'pose. I take all my measurements "hot" so I don't take shrinkage into account. Whether you do or not will depend on when you decide to measure.

 

[Peter Wadey]

I suppose, I dont use the term knockout, so I'm not sure what you mean -

I meant the volume in the kettle when you have turned the heat off, but not really done anything else. Maybe cooled I s'pose. I take all my measurements "hot" so I don't take shrinkage into account. Whether you do or not will depend on when you decide to measure.

Thirsty, Yorg (& Tony with apologies for adding to your confusion with my earlier post, now deleted)

The batch size entered in the recipe area is the cooled "end of boil" (knockout/ flameout) wort volume.
eg working backward from desired fermenter volume with my own figures

target fermenter volume = 23.00 litres
volume to chillers(hot) = (23.00 * 1.04) = 23.96
assted waste (hot) = 1.90 say
Amount at end of boil (hot) = (waste + pre-chill) = 1.90+ 23.96 = 25.86
Recipe Batch size (cold) = 25.86 / 1.04 = 24.87

Tony,
With non-zero waste, you must be getting better efficiency than set in the recipe.

Hope this clarifies things.

Peter

 

[Yorg]

OK, so the Batch Size setting in the recipe should be the volume of wort when you turn the heat off right at the end of the boil - but calculating that volume as if the wort was cold.

?????


Cripes, surely that is more obscure than could possibly have been intended by the Promash guy, but then again...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well, the promash guy intends you to use ALL the features of his software - if you do, it has built in bits to accommodate all this stuff. Its just that you have to be pretty intimate with how pro-mash works and your own brewing process, to be able to get alot of value out of all the other features.

Its called pro-mash - its a pro level program and there are a few compromises between usability and having all the functions that a micro-brewery could require.

That said - if you are using the program as I mainly do - as recipe development and storage tool, that comes packaged with a set of brewing calculators - then its pretty damn useful as well. But, you just have to know what stuff like batch size equates to when you are using it that way.

work backwards from your target fermentor volume just the once (as shown by PW) then set that as your default batch size... and you are away.

The way I work it - I am aiming to fill a 19L corny keg via a 20L NC cube. So I am aiming for a hot volume of about 21L. Therefore, I don't take into account the shrinkage thing because in my set-up, I am rarely measuring cold wort.

So massage the software to suit the way you use it - or grit your teeth and dive into the full experience, then you can use the raw numbers.

TB

 

[Yorg]

OK I've got it from the Promash guy himself - Donovan.
The answer is in short Batch Size is the volume of wort at the end of the boil - hot, before cooling, and before any transfer losses. Turn the flame of and what you have in the pot is it.

 

[Peter Wadey]

OK I've got it from the Promash guy himself - Donovan.
The answer is in short Batch Size is the volume of wort at the end of the boil - hot, before cooling, and before any transfer losses. Turn the flame of and what you have in the pot is it.

Yorg,
Whether the Batch Size was hot or cold was not made explicit by Jeff.
I have asked Jeff to make it explicit in a reply on the Promash forum.

Peter

 

[Yorg]

Yes I noticed, I am very interested in what the reply will be.
You know, it makes me wonder just how many people actually use this program as intended - Formulating a recipe for a given batch size seems pretty fundamental.

 

[dr K]

Formulating a recipe for a given batch size seems pretty fundamental.

Well, yes until I say tomato and you say tomatoe.
Even if we all talking the same language and not some pidgin of knockouts and flameouts of wort size and batch size of points per pound (I don't use a hammer mill so its geek to me) and efficiency and what efficiency, what are you comparing, what are you measuring and what am I or he or she measuring or expecting.
Even after we get over all that the big thing is adjusting to meet our system, different set ups, different geometrys mean different results, I bet my system has very diferent losses just based on base to volume ratio than Fred's or Joe's or the other one.
So I get that right, I get a formula for my system based on observation and measurement...great.
Then we need to factor technique in, in winter I tend to use a vented cover over my boiler (I brew outside) for the first 30 minutes, I dont go above 60% capacity anyway (I have a 120 litre boiler and even 70 litres starting will result in a boil over sometimes), my evaporation losses even for the same boil time vary by a number of percent, my loss through trub is unpredicatable and so it goes.
Promash/Beersmith both give you the capability to adjust all sorts of things according to your system, the initial settings are a pretty good fit for such a wide range. Do many people tweak the settings, no idea, in my case best case would be to tweak to match the brew before !!
We are homebrewers, our systems and techniques are not tightly controlled, PM/BS are excellent tools but in the end merely a tool.

K

 

[Yorg]

Update - thanks to peter for persevering.

The batch size in Promash is the after boil volume at the point you turn your heat off, and before you do anything else (eg transfer).
BUT. It is the equivalent COLD volume.
That is, if you have 20 (near boiling) litres left in the kettle, the batch size to have used in your recipe is 20 / 1.04 = 19.2. This assumes a 4% shrinkage upon cooling.

This is based on Jeffrey Donovan's reply on the Promash help forum.

I must say, this is a particulary unintuitive and unintegrated aspect of using the program - not aligned to the process of making beer.