probably mashed too high

[Jack of all biers]

ESB is extremely flocculant and some have occasional stuck ferments with it. Personally, I have not found this to be the case, but you may have more calcium in your water or some other random thing that is increasing the already high flocculant properties of the yeast. Just something to consider as it could also be a range of other things (thermometer out used for mash for example).

EDIT - Give it a rouse and see if that helps at the higher temp you've set.

 

[seehuusen]

Hmmm, maybe you're onto something.
Have a gander at my water profile/additions to meet Wells and Fullers supposed water profile...

 

[Jack of all biers]

yeah, but what is your calcium level to begin with. Those additions don't seem extreme on their own.

EDIT - Oh wait, it's 23L right? Maybe then. Have you calculated it into Brewers friend or similar as to your total Calcium content?

 

[seehuusen]

I don't have the profile on my phone, but it's calculated up from my water profile, using beer Smith 2.
Will dig up the numbers when I get home

 

[seehuusen]

Wells Water

Calcium: 300.00 ppm
Sulfate: 300.00 ppm
Magnesium: 20.00 ppm
Chloride: 0.00 ppm
Sodium: 0.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 0.00 ppm
PH: 7.00

Water Additions Needed (35L)
Gypsum: 20.0
Baking Soda: 0.0
Salt: 0.0
Chalk: 0.4
Epsom Salt: 0.0 Calcium Chloride: 3.7

 

[seehuusen]

So the Fullers London Pride I pitched onto the yeast cake is stalled at 1.018, not budging at all.
All up, ~60% attenuation, so close to the minimum stated on Danstar (65%-75%, http://www.danstaryeast.com/company/products/london-esb).

Thinking I might take the fermenter out of the fridge and let it sit at whatever temp it is outside (29?) for a few days.
I'm brewing up an IPA, so need the space in the fermentation fridge... It's either that or I crash chill it and live with the extra sweetness in the beer.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Wells Water

Calcium: 300.00 ppm
Sulfate: 300.00 ppm
Magnesium: 20.00 ppm
Chloride: 0.00 ppm
Sodium: 0.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 0.00 ppm
PH: 7.00

Water Additions Needed (35L)
Gypsum: 20.0
Baking Soda: 0.0
Salt: 0.0
Chalk: 0.4
Epsom Salt: 0.0 Calcium Chloride: 3.7

Just running your figures through Brewers friend shows your calcium level to be 464.1 mg/L, which Brewers friend shows as 'May be harmful' level. It shows your Sulphate level as 618.8 mg/L and describes it as high, putting the Cl/SO4 ratio as 'Too bitter'. The calcium level will effect the yeast big time. From Br'un water website 'The ideal range for calcium ion concentration in ales may be 50 to 100 ppm although exceeding this range may cause phosphorus (an essential yeast nutrient) to precipitate excessively out of solution.'



That sulphate/chloride ratio will make it somewhat 'an acquired taste' :huh:

I put in your recipe you originally posted, as you didn't post for this current recipe, so if it's the same you need to play with it, as the mash pH is way too low (combination of roasted grains and Calcium level I would suggest, so if the water is changed, then the grains may not need adjustment)

Even without any Calcium additions to your level of 300 mg/L Brewers friend is suggesting the Ca level 'May be harmful' and all I know about the topic is that levels of Ca should be between 50 and 100 mg/L and probably shouldn't exceed 150 mg/L (Brewers friend confirms my readings elsewhere and puts anything above 150 as 'high' and anything above 250 as 'may be harmful').

All up, with your posted water report, I would suggest you never need to use Gypsum (SO4) in your brews again and that you mix your water with distilled water (or clean rain water) at least 50/50. You would be better placed adding Calcium chloride to balance out the ratios somewhat, especially for porters/stouts. I have never used Beer Smith, but find it hard to fathom why it was telling you to put in so much SO4.

EDIT - added link

 

[seehuusen]

Thanks Jack, just for my understanding, and as a clarification, the water report posted is the target water, and additions is what I need to add to my own water to get there.
Are you suggesting that the target water profile I used is potentially the culprit?

 

[Jack of all biers]

Ah, I see. I thought you were posting your actual water report, thinking you got your water from somewhere called 'Wells'. :lol: I thought it was quite an odd group of figures for any sort of water (bore or surface).

As for a group of target values, then yes, I think it is not helping your ESB yeast (or any for that matter) to have a Ca level at 300ppm. Not one source recommends Ca levels this high and if they do, I would question it with a lot of skepticism. I would stick with 150 ppm Ca as the absolute max and probably advise to aim for 100 ppm Ca as the grain can add some.

Even the aim of SO4 at 300ppm and the Cl at 0ppm is rather inappropriate for a Stout or Porter (again I am assuming your most recent recipe is similar to the last you posted) and even rather extreme for an India Pale Ale. I know that you have about 51 ppm Cl, but I would think that 100 ppm Cl would be better if you wanted a bit more balance (this would still be a 3:1 SO4:Cl ratio).

2c

EDIT - just a quick spin of Brewers friend (with 0 values for source water) shows that 10gm Gypsum and 4gm CaCl alone bring your SO4 to 160ppm and Cl to 55 ppm (3:1 ish) and your Ca to 98 ppm. With your Porter recipe it also gives a mash pH of 5.37, so very good for 65C mash temp. Further food for thought, but without knowing your source water values this may need adjustment. I can only highly recommend you try Brewers friend as it allows one to play with the values until satisfied with the outcome.

 

[seehuusen]

Fantastic information, super appreciated
Wells do the Bombardier ale, which in terms of water, is identical to Fullers. All the water reports were found on the interwebs, not too sure where else to find a brewery's water profiles. However, with your encouragement, ill now question them prior to taking it as gospel

Thanks all for all your fantastic feedback, gotta love the knowledge on this forum

 

[Jack of all biers]

Fullers beer's are beautiful and if I died with 10 beers to drink as my last, two would be Fullers ESB and London Pride. Beautiful malt flavour in both. Malt flavour, that I doubt comes from a ratio of 300ppm SO4 and 0ppm Cl. I question the source that states they use such water. Wells on the other hand, I don't know.

EDIT - may I suggest you through some of the interweb info re water reports used by breweries past and present out the window or on the fire. Look at the recipe, think about the historical beers made in London and think about what you want out of the recipe. Historically London beers had a fairly balanced Cl/SO4 rate and many world famous styles (Porter and Stout for example) came out of London that are malty and not hop driven. If someone tries to tell you to do extreme ratios of any mineral for any supposed city brew water, take it with a shovel full of salt and look elsewhere for advise.

Palmer's ratio's for london water as below (not recommending them, but as a comparison to what you were advised by Beer Smith it is a fair difference)

City Calcium(Ca+2) Magnesium(Mg+2) Bicarbonate(HCO3-1) SO4-2 Na+1 Cl-1

London 52 32 104 32 86 34


2nd EDIT - A quick look at Michael Jackson's Beer Companion, shows that Wells merged with Youngs and all are brewed at the Youngs brewery in Bedford. If you are trying to do a clone of the Wells Bombardier maybe put up a post asking if someone has a recipe or tried it before. I'll bet there has been one done by someone. The blurb in the book describes Bombardier as; 4.3% Premium bitter - "A powerful citrus hop aroma is balanced by traces of malt and dried fruit that impart a rich complexity and a final bitterness to the taste" This description alone suggests a higher SO4 to Cl ratio, but I doubt it would be 300:0 or even 300:51 (6:1 ratio)

3rd EDIT - No need to post a new one. Found this one for you http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/24542-wells-bombardier-recipe/

 

[seehuusen]

You sir, are a bloody legend!! Thanks very much for your insight.

If you were to recommend a source of information, that clearly outlines the effect specific minerals have on a beer, e.g. aspects of how to promote malt forward or hop forward, citrus vs floral etc etc. What would that be?

Thanks again for your very educational responses

 

[Jack of all biers]

If you were to recommend a source of information, that clearly outlines the effect specific minerals have on a beer, e.g. aspects of how to promote malt forward or hop forward, citrus vs floral etc etc. What would that be?

Not just one source I'm afraid, but multiple. Some are very good, some are great, but all together give a bigger picture. This forum to start with. Searched properly, I expect it has the answer to all lifes questions, let alone all the nuances of brewing :lol: . Palmer has some of the basics cover, Bru'n water really gets into it and will probably cover the effect of specific minerals that you are after. Brewers friend has all the calculators to help you get the outcomes once you understand that A will effect B, C, D and Z in certain ways. There are so many more, like books etc that aren't online, but if you pick up enough from this site your won't need them.