Plum Melomel Or Braggot

[brettprevans]

I'll open this up to the collective for debate/advice/comment/discussion

Ive decided that im going to do a Plum melomel or braggot. Now the kicker is that Im going to make it a funky one and use W9097 Old Ale with Brett. aged plum mead with that old casky horsy characteristics would be a strange but delightful taste

Now depending on whether I make a melomel or a braggot will determine method. If I go melomel then i'll use Airgead's method here
If I go a braggot, then I'll use a braggot method, then once fermented use Airgeads methos of fruit addition (adding after primary just like beer).

So recipes I hear you ask.....

Melomel
Honey
Plums
vanilla
cinnamon
Yeast Nutrient
Yeast Energizer (DAP)
1 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1/8 tsp Potassium Metabisulfite
funk yeasts.

Braggot
3.5kg Ale malt
2.2kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
250g Crystal malt 120L
250g Beglian Special 'B' malt
4.5kg Honey
1/2 of a Black cardamom pod
Yeast Nutrient
Yeast Energizer (DAP)
1 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1/8 tsp Potassium Metabisulfite
OG Est: 1.110
FG Est: 1.005

So ive poached and bastardized some exsisting recipes for a start.

Issues:
W9097 is only about 12% alc tolerant. so should I pitch the funk first then use a mead yeast or vice versa? (Thx Maple for that point)
Recipes would have to be modified to suit volume.
Frsh or canned plums (not prunes)


So I'll open it up for comment....

 

[Airgead]

I'll open this up to the collective for debate/advice/comment/discussion

Ive decided that im going to do a Plum melomel or braggot. Now the kicker is that Im going to make it a funky one and use W9097 Old Ale with Brett. aged plum mead with that old casky horsy characteristics would be a strange but delightful taste

Sounds good. I'm not sure what Brett would do to a mel (do they do brett wines?). At least with a braggot you are closer to a beer so you will have a better idea of the flavours you will get.

Cheers
Dave

 

[brettprevans]

Sounds good. I'm not sure what Brett would do to a mel (do they do brett wines?).

nfi if they do or not. not sure if any of the stickies have brett.. probably not. Kirem might be the man with the answer. Paging Kirem

I just figured it should give a similar flavour as with a beer. i guess i'll find out if i make the melomel (which im leaning towards).


edit:
put my googlefu to work.. most results seem to be about avoiding/dealing with Brett taint in wines. I foudn a few places selling 'brett' wines but nothing about the characteristics of it in wine. from what i can tell it should producde roughly the same sorts of characteristics but potententially overpowering the fruit flavour. hmmmmm

 

[kirem]

Taint caused by Brettanomyces sp. or more correctly Dekkera sp. is considered a fault in wine.

It is tolerated in many European wines, but most people consider it a fault in new world wines. It is also tolerated in Pinot noir.

Not only does it give unwanted aroma and taste, it can cause a metallic character on the palate and masks fruit aroma and flavour. It also gets worse with bottle age.

You are correct, in winemaking I use techniques and additives to avoid it like the plague.

I did my honours project on Brett/Dekkera in wine whilst I was at Uni, I am also highly sensitive to it and dislike it immensly.

I find it interesting that the brewing community has adopted it as a positive for some beer styles and the wine industry as a negative or tolerated

An interesting area for development with brett character is;
4EG is quite a useful character - smoky, bacony, or spicy
4EP is not so nice - band aids, medicinal
isovaleric acid is like vomit and cheesy
4EC is horsey

each strain will have different ratios of these characters, if a strain was developed to reduce or eliminate isolvaleric acid and 4EP and increase 4EG then it would be a very useful strain to have in the toolbox.

Other yeast strains such as Pichia sp.can produce brett like characters as well.

typically 4EP:4EG 8:1

here is a great article on brett in beer;
http://www.brewbasement.com/cellaring-scie...k-in-your-beer/
http://www.brewbasement.com/cellaring-scie...onents-in-beer/

 

[brettprevans]

I knew you'd have the good Kirem.

So what do you recon about the above proposal. Im taking fom the w9097 description that its Bret strain 4EC

 

[Stuster]

I think that it would be an interesting strain to try in a braggot. I've used it in a few beers now and I really like it. The leather/horse sweat aroma is fairly strong. No vomit flavours that I could pick up thankfully. Fairly fruity as well, from the ale yeast I suppose. I can see it working with the honey aroma. No real idea about the mel though so not trying to discourage you from making that instead (as well? :icon_cheers: ).

 

[kirem]

I am all for experiments. If you want brett characters in you Melomel/Braggot then I say go for it.

Give it a go and judge for youself.

Only advice I have and it is given elsewhere on AHB, is that brett is a very difficult yeast to kill or remove from your equipment. I would use separate equipment or at the very least use a decent sanitiser like peracetic acid (also known as peroxyacetic acid, or PAA).

 

[brettprevans]

im thinking im going to have to make both! I'll have to find someone thats used w9097 to see what they thought and how they used it.

yeah i hear you in regards to killing the bastards Kirem. Ive got a old bruin funk beer going atm so i think that will become my 'funk fermentor' for all future funk brews.
A bit of bleech should kill the bastards shoudlnt it? then some PBW follwed by starsan.

 

[Stuster]

I think it's a good idea to keep the same fermenters for wild beers. I used it just the same as a normal ale yeast. I did find that the first generation had the least amount of brett flavours/aromas. The second and third batch with a standard amount of slurry from the earlier batches were much better IMO.

 

[Airgead]

im thinking im going to have to make both!

That's the true homebrewers spirit... :icon_chickcheers:

 

[brettprevans]

well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.

so im thinking

Plum Melomel
5kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
5kg orange blossum honey
2 vanilla beans
1 cinamon stick.
w9097
19L

That puts me over the 1.000+ OG territory


Braggot
2.5kg Ale malt
4kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
250g Crystal malt 60L
250g Beglian Special 'B' malt
1/2 of a Black cardamom pod
4.0kg Honey
w9097
19L
~OG 1.011

By the way does anyone have an update promash ingredients list? my version doesnt have fruit, vanilla, cinamon or anything.

 

[Airgead]

well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.

I have found that if you want more than just a little fruit flavour, you need to use a LOT of fruit. My last red mel had 450g of berries in 4.5l of wine and it still tastes more like a rose than a red. That was using 1.5gk honey. I suspect you really need to use honey-fruit almost at 1:1 to get a really strong flavour. I can feel another experiment coming on...

Cheers
Dave

 

[brettprevans]

good point Dave. but still 11+kg of fruit is heaps. i used 4kg of strawbs in my straw wheat and that ok. and plumbs have more flavour than strawbs.

My recipes should be ok as they are basicly 1:1. yeah start the small batch experiments! i need some demijohns.

Also been searching AHB and found a review thread on W9097 - here. just in case people are looking at this thread in the future and want a 'one stop shop 'reference'.

 

[brettprevans]

pulling my finger out and will bottle my batch of ouid bruin over the next few days and will then use the funk fermentor for this.

Plum Melomel
5kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
5kg orange blossum honey
2 vanilla beans
1 cinamon stick.
w9097 funk
DAP
nutrient.
19L

should be interesting if any roselare yeast survives and takes up residence alongside the w9097 (old ale).

will keep posted.

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

any results for this so far? I've been thinking of experimenting with brett and honey for a while now......

 

[brettprevans]

my starter got destroyed and I havent gotten around to doing it again. Am probably going to wait until there are some good new season plums around rather than relying solely on tinned.

will post results

 

[brettprevans]

well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.

so im thinking

Plum Melomel
5kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
5kg orange blossum honey
2 vanilla beans
1 cinamon stick.
w9097
19L

That puts me over the 1.000+ OG territory


Braggot
2.5kg Ale malt
4kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
250g Crystal malt 60L
250g Beglian Special 'B' malt
1/2 of a Black cardamom pod
4.0kg Honey
w9097
19L
~OG 1.011

By the way does anyone have an update promash ingredients list? my version doesnt have fruit, vanilla, cinamon or anything.

well delayed experiment, but went down on 21 Jan 2012

plum Braggot
2.5kg ale
4kg strong blend honey0.25kg medium crystal
0.25kg special b
1kg plums in boil
25g magnum @ 60
25g challanger @ 30
2 cardomom pods @10

W9097 old ale
2kg tinned plums blended added to secondary.
25L
OG 1083 (excl plums)

1/3 honey added in boil, 2/3 honey added slowly through primary fermentation.

am yet to add the 2kg of plumbs into secondary cause the last lot of honey is still fermenting away... but it smells fantastic, lovely bit of brett coming through, and that really strong honey and hints of plums. this should be a cracker. will report back when ready for kegging and then in 6 months when it should be ready for drinking

 

[keezawitch]

well delayed experiment, but went down on 21 Jan 2012

plum Braggot
2.5kg ale
4kg strong blend honey0.25kg medium crystal
0.25kg special b
1kg plums in boil
25g magnum @ 60
25g challanger @ 30
2 cardomom pods @10

W9097 old ale
2kg tinned plums blended added to secondary.
25L
OG 1083 (excl plums)

1/3 honey added in boil, 2/3 honey added slowly through primary fermentation.

am yet to add the 2kg of plumbs into secondary cause the last lot of honey is still fermenting away... but it smells fantastic, lovely bit of brett coming through, and that really strong honey and hints of plums. this should be a cracker. will report back when ready for kegging and then in 6 months when it should be ready for drinking

don't know what all the ingred are as i am new to this but, I love honey, plums and cardamon so sounds goood to me, hope it turns out excellent for you

 

[brettprevans]

don't know what all the ingred are as i am new to this but, I love honey, plums and cardamon so sounds goood to me, hope it turns out excellent for you

Ok think half beer feremented honey combined with plums and old ale yeast which thete is a link above to describe the chatacteristics of.

Ok ingredianta for u wod be
Ale = 2row
Strong honey = blended cooking honey. Like what they make muslie bars from
Specialb is a type of malt. Dark, buscuity, special belgian sweetness. U can get it in usa.
Magnum and challanger r hops. Part of the beer element.i can outline the full process if u like. Tomorrow though, ive been drinking and am typing on the phone...

 

[keezawitch]

Ok think half beer feremented honey combined with plums and old ale yeast which thete is a link above to describe the chatacteristics of.

Ok ingredianta for u wod be
Ale = 2row
Strong honey = blended cooking honey. Like what they make muslie bars from
Specialb is a type of malt. Dark, buscuity, special belgian sweetness. U can get it in usa.
Magnum and challanger r hops. Part of the beer element.i can outline the full process if u like. Tomorrow though, ive been drinking and am typing on the phone...

sounds good, i understand a bit better now, let use know how it goes in 6 mths if its good i will give it a go, plum season will start shortly after that and farms around here grow and sell them also i have local honey producers, used their honey in a mead i am doing.