Pilsner and helles questions

[Alex.Tas]

I'm working away from home over the next month or two so i figured it would be a good time to throw down a larger or two while im away so that it can lager in the ferm fridge. This allows me to keep brewing (lagering) whist working form the other side of the state.

I made a terrible pilsner last year and has put me off trying for a while. I'd like to have a go again however and found manticle's post at the end of this thread http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79416-making-a-pilsner/?hl=pilsner to be a good idea.

I've bought from G&G in the past and they have been good so i'll likely order from them again.
As they stock:
pilsner dry malt extract : http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/IMBILYLI%20malt-extract/4BRIESS+PILS+LIGHT+1KG
and pilsner liquid malt extract: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/IMBILYLI%20malt-extract/4BRIESS+PILS+LIGHT+CAN

I'm unsure which to buy. There are countless threads on the merits of dry vs liquid extract, and its not my intention to get bogged down in that debate. My question is however, if I were to make a extract brew using either of the above, should i use the pilsner malt extract for the majority of the fermentables? or should i use half pilsner malt extract and half ordinary light malt extract?

Also, if i were to use the pilsner malt extract, would this reduce the need to use specialty grains such as carapils etc?

I was thinking something along the lines of:
3kg of briess pilsen light dry malt
following cz saaz hop schedule
60@60
60@20
20@10
20@5
40 dry hopped.
Suggestions on yeast? dry yeast preferably as i'll have to get the briess posted and dont want to pay for excessive express postage on 3-4kg package.

Also planning on making a helles after the pils is done. identical question but with regards to munich malt extract... should i use all munich extract (only available in liquid it seems) or should i balance between munich and regular ldme?

Cheers,

 

[manticle]

I would use it for the bulk of your fermentables.

Liquid or dried is up to you - just make sure whichever you choose is fresh. GG are pretty good at looking after their stock.

Yeast wise I can't recommend as all my experience is with liquid.

I wouldn't recommend dry hopping with saaz. Have a look at the hop schedule for pilsner urquell - it's a bit simpler than yours.I'd be going something like 20 IBU at 60 and another 15-20 around 10 or 20 minutes.

Carapils won't hurt if you want a slightly dextrinous mouthfeel. I haven't used carapils but I deliberately mash most beers to get some dextrins in there and as long as the beer attenuates well, it really gives lagers (and other beers) a pleasant lift.

Fresh saaz and proper yeast treatment will make this beer. What was wrong with your last one?

For your helles - take a look at a decent AG recipe and replicate the grain bill using extract. I've not made a helles but I'm pretty sure it isn't usually 100% munich. I believe there is usually paler malt like pils in there too in which case I'd be using the briess again.

 

[verysupple]

This link has a lot of AG info but there is also useful stuff that applies to an extract helles.

For your helles - take a look at a decent AG recipe and replicate the grain bill using extract. I've not made a helles but I'm pretty sure it isn't usually 100% munich. I believe there is usually paler malt like pils in there too in which case I'd be using the briess again.

From the colour of the commercial ones I like to drink, and from what I've read, the bulk (often 100%) of the grain bill should be Pilsner malt - Munich is a bit to intense for a helles. I'd go with the Briess Pils extract. You could add a hint of somthing darker just for a touch more colour, but I'd just use 100% pils extract and save having to guy another bag/jar or extract.

 

[slcmorro]

That's a fair bit of hops there my friend. What IBUs does that give you?

 

[Alex.Tas]

Cheers for the quick response guys.
Manticle, why the aversion to dry hopping with Saaz? im not being critical, just interested to understand the reason.
The last one i made was so cloudy- not yeast cloudy, just a persistent cloudyness i couln't get rid of. I can't remember what i put into it, my brew folder is back in Hobart at the moment... cant describe the taste from memory as i tipped the majority of it out!

I might have a go with w34/70 as i'm yet to use it, and it can probably do both the helles and the pils, one after the other...

for the pils how does this sound?

3kg dry pils extract
0.3kg carapils

Cz saaz:
60 at 60
45 at 20
50 at 10

23L batch
Spreadsheet predicts from a 6L boil size (using HCF):
OG: 1.051
FG: 1.013
IBU: 39.9
EBC: 5.3
Lovibond: 2.6

2.5 vols of CO2
using w34/70
5.3% alc

brew and pitch at 12 until done, then raise to 18 for D rest, then bring down to 2 deg for a month or so.

As for the helles,
2kg pils malt extract (dry)
1kg ldme (already on hand)
some carahell (on hand)
hops will be hallertauer mitt same yeast as above.

brew method same as above.

Thoughts?

 

[manticle]

Have you ever dry hopped with saaz or drunk a brew that has been?

Like soaking lawn clippings in hot water to my palate. If you have good, fresh hops you won't need to dry hop it anyway.
Pitch plenty of yeast (2 packs) and treat it nicely.

 

[stakka82]

Agree with Manticle, also with Saaz you're typically using a truckload to get your IBU, so the flavour and aroma will definitely pop without the need for dry hopping.

 

[Alex.Tas]

ah okay fair enough. I may have used them as a dry hop in my previous batch, may have accounted for the horrid taste...
because i like to use learn new things - could i get away with one pack of yeast and make up a starter?

Any thoughts on the helles recipe?

Cheers,

EDIT: VS - Just read that link you posted. thanks for that. super helpful. Should i look to use magnum or perle as bittering hops, or would halltertauer work okay for the whole beer?

 

[verysupple]

EDIT: VS - Just read that link you posted. thanks for that. super helpful. Should i look to use magnum or perle as bittering hops, or would halltertauer work okay for the whole beer?

Hallertauer will work but you'll need a lot more of it because of its lower AA%. Kai recommends higher AA% hops for bittering so that you use less and minimise the risk of vegetative flavours. But if you already have heaps of Hallertauer at home, just use it.

 

[Alex.Tas]

I plugged in 20 at 60, 20 at 40 and 30 at 15 and got 19.2 predicted ibu with bv of 6L (HCF on).
Swapping out the 60 minute addtion with magnum only really dropped the hop bill by around 10g. Think I'll just run with hallertauer.

think i might try 2.7kg of briess pilsner extract, 300g of cara hell and 300g of cara vienna if i can get some locally. I couldn;t find any caravienna on the G&G website. I'll wash and reuse the w34/70 i use in the pils if i can...

thoughts/concerns?

 

[verysupple]

I plugged in 20 at 60, 20 at 40 and 30 at 15 and got 19.2 predicted ibu with bv of 6L (HCF on).
Swapping out the 60 minute addtion with magnum only really dropped the hop bill by around 10g. Think I'll just run with hallertauer.

think i might try 2.7kg of briess pilsner extract, 300g of cara hell and 300g of cara vienna if i can get some locally. I couldn;t find any caravienna on the G&G website. I'll wash and reuse the w34/70 i use in the pils if i can...

thoughts/concerns?

Hop-wise it sounds OK. This is purely a personal thing, but I'd keep it simple for a helles. One addition at the start of the boil and another small addition (maybe about 10 g in a 23 L batch) at about 15 - 20 min to add just a touch of aroma/flavour.

Caramel/crystal charater is not appropriate for a helles, so I'd just use 100% Pils extract. You could maybe add a very small amount of Munich extract for a hint more colour if you already have some. I wouldn't buy a whole new bag/jar of extract if you don't already have it, though.

w34/70 will turn out nice, it's a pretty versatile strain from what I have read. If for some reason you can't wash and reuse it, there are a few other strains that you might consider trying, like 2042, 2206, 2308. I prefer helles to be soft and malty so by the descriptions on the Wyeast website I'd lean towards 2206 or 2308.

There's a caveat to go with all this. I drink a lot of helles but have never brewed one, so this advice is from what my senses tell me and what I've read. So feel free to completely ignore everything I've written.

 

[Donske]

Hallertauer will work but you'll need a lot more of it because of its lower AA%. Kai recommends higher AA% hops for bittering so that you use less and minimise the risk of vegetative flavours. But if you already have heaps of Hallertauer at home, just use it.

I don't find Hallertau lends itself to grassiness, that said, I wouldn't dry hop with it, definitely use it the whole way through the boil though, it's a fantastic hop.

 

[wereprawn]

I don't make many lagers so take from this what you will. What are you trying to achieve with the addition of 600 g of caramel grain ? After sucking down countless pilseners in my time, their main attraction for me has been that they are light bodied and super clean flavoured. All that cara would seem to go against the pilsener style.

 

[verysupple]

I don't make many lagers so take from this what you will. What are you trying to achieve with the addition of 600 g of caramel grain ? After sucking down countless pilseners in my time, their main attraction for me has been that they are light bodied and super clean flavoured. All that cara would seem to go against the pilsener style.

The recipe with 600 g of caramel malts is actually for a helles, not a pils. But yes, it's still out of style in a helles as I mentioned 3 posts ago.

 

[Alex.Tas]

The use of the caravienna was to get closer to the link you posed in posed #3. The Carahell was using some grain called hell in a hell beer - i figure it would work. Not worth it for either?

Cheers

 

[yum beer]

The cara hell and vienna will be fine but at lower levels. As is they are about 10% each, drop them to about 2% each for a subtle hit of flavour and colour.

 

[verysupple]

The use of the caravienna was to get closer to the link you posed in posed #3. The Carahell was using some grain called hell in a hell beer - i figure it would work. Not worth it for either?

Cheers

CaraVienna will bring a different character to Vienna. You could use it but use less as yum said so that it doesn't bring too much caramel character. "Hell" just means light/pale in German. CaraHell is just a light/pale caramel malt.

If you really want to add something to the Pils base, just use either CaraVeinna or CaraHell to keep it simple. That way you can see what it adds. If you add both it'll be hard to determine what each one brings to the table.

 

[Alex.Tas]

Thanks Yumbeer and VS.

I would like to add some sort of grain to these brews as well as the pils malt extract. so i've come up with this one
3kg pils ME (95%)
150g carahell (5%) - I went with this over caravienna as i couldn;t get any from G&G.
OG 1.050
FG 1.013
hallertauer 20 at 60, 20 at 40 and 30 at 15 and got 19.2 predicted ibu with bv of 6L (HCF on).
sound better?

 

[verysupple]

Looking good. Although I'd still reduce the late hops to maybe 10 - 15 g at 15 min as helles really don't have much hop aroma or flavour (sometimes none). If you haven't already had it, I highly recommend Weihenstephaner Original as a great example of the style.

Also, once you've bought your hops check the actual AA% as it may be slightly different to what it says on the website (sometimes it takes them a while to update it when a new batch comes) and then adjust your bittering additions to get your desired IBUs.

 

[manticle]

I think you might struggle to get caravienne here.

Consider adding in a kilo of vienna and ensuring the temp stays between 60 and 70 for at least 30 minutes. This will make it a partial mash.

Otherwise 100% pils.