Pilsener Malt Gravity Question

[verysupple]

V/S I wasn't commenting on you or your brewing process, I was trying to give some information to help the Wall with his issue.
What I posted stands, if you can get hold of a copy of the Bestmalt Pilsner COA it will (or bloody well should) list the scarification time and it will be less than 20 minutes (or it will say Normal ~15m).

Nobody can manufacture a Pilsner malt that takes 90-120 minutes to convert and stay in business as a maltster. The only conclusion possible is that Wall has a process issue and I have already indicated the most likely solutions. The odds of it being a Malt problem rather than a Brewer problem are really pretty small.
Mark

Sorry if I came across a bit narky or something, that wasn't the intention. I'm just after a bit more advice because, as you pointed out, it's very unlikely to be a malt problem and I'm having the same problem as Wall.

I've never bothered hunting down a batch specific analysis but I looked up the average analysis and nothing jumped out as something that might lead to problems. The website seems to be down right now so I can't check, but from memory I think you're in the ball park about the stated saccharification time.

 

[verysupple]

On the topic of thermometers, you really need to get a lab grade mercury one to calibrate off. I had no idea how far off some of my thermometers were (especially the digital stick variety) until I got a couple of these.

Yeah, that's what I did. I borrowed a couple from the lab and tested all my brewing and kitchen thermometers. They were within 0.5 C across the relevant range but the STC-1000 was way off the mark near zero and above 60 C (not that I ferment at 60 so it probably doesn't matter ).

 

[fraser_john]

As a BIAB brewer, I generally use 36L strike water and 4.5kg - 6kg of grain in the mash...It is no doubt thin compared to other methods, but I thought this was fairly standard for BIAB?

For those of you who use acidulated malt to get pH down in pale beers, how do you know how much to add?

Hiya Albanian,

I have a litre of 88% lactic acid, bring a small container over and we can water some down with distilled water to about 11%, 30ml of 88% makes up 240ml of 11%. I measure my pH after dough in, then just add a drop or two at a time, remeasuring pH until it is low enough. I find all my pale beers need this treatment, but I use rainwater and salt additions......may be different for you.

Same goes for any other Geelong Craft Brewer, pop around with a clean container and fix me up for a couple of $, you should be supplied with enough 11% lactic acid to last you ages.

 

[Black n Tan]

As a BIAB brewer, I generally use 36L strike water and 4.5kg - 6kg of grain in the mash...It is no doubt thin compared to other methods, but I thought this was fairly standard for BIAB?

For those of you who use acidulated malt to get pH down in pale beers, how do you know how much to add?

There nothing wrong with a thin mash. In fact some have suggested that thin mashes give greater efficiency, and this is the likely case with BIAB. I use a BM and my pilsners are mashed at 5.5-6.0l/kg and convert fine. I also doubt very much whether a thin mash will have an appreciable impact on mash pH, the reason being that mash pH is driven by the buffering capacity of the malt rather than the ph of the water, and there is still plenty of buffering capacity at 6l/kg.

As for how much acidulated to use, Brun water is a good place to start: you enter your water chemistry and grain bill and it tells you the likely mash pH (it is pretty accurate) and then you can work out how much acidulated to add to get it in the right range. Assuming Geelong water is very soft like Melbourne, you probably want to add about 3% acidulated to get a mash pH of about 5.3.

 

[Adr_0]

I thought the carbonate level in tap water buffered pH (kept where it naturally is) more than phosphates in the malt bringing pH down? I have had a high pH which got higher as I diluted the mash, which is probably similar to sparging (though perhaps not as dramatic). If with a fairly dilute mash the water has a fair bit of carbonate in it, I would say that pH isn't moving too much unless you drag it down with something else.

I think all of the above posts (particularly Mark's) should cover getting the same efficiency faster. I made a comment earlier about extract potential and it's one of those 1-3%ers, i.e. if you're aiming for 1075 in your mash and you are waiting around for it to hit this, but you have used a malt with less extract potential (e.g. wheat or an undermodified malt) and it's actually only 1072, which you've been sitting at for 30min (fully converted).

 

[Black n Tan]

I thought the carbonate level in tap water buffered pH (kept where it naturally is) more than phosphates in the malt bringing pH down? I have had a high pH which got higher as I diluted the mash, which is probably similar to sparging (though perhaps not as dramatic). If with a fairly dilute mash the water has a fair bit of carbonate in it, I would say that pH isn't moving too much unless you drag it down with something else.

Right you are Adr_0. My comment above was meant to refer to soft water like I assumed Albanian was using.

 

[labels]

A few things to consider. Generally, the crush is most likely the cause of poor efficiency. LHBS's have just one setting on the mill. One size fits all. Thing is, different malts need different settings. Maris Otter for example has short fat grains while most Aussie grains are longer and thinner. Uncrushed or poorly crushed grains do not yield very good efficiency.

Secondly, pH is unlikely to be a problem due to the incredible buffering power of the mash. Acidulated malt will take it down a couple of points but after that, the buffering will take over and any more acidulated malt will have a zero affect except to make your beer taste like lactic acid.

If the wheat malt was malted, you should not have a problem

 

[Adr_0]

A few things to consider. Generally, the crush is most likely the cause of poor efficiency. LHBS's have just one setting on the mill. One size fits all. Thing is, different malts need different settings. Maris Otter for example has short fat grains while most Aussie grains are longer and thinner. Uncrushed or poorly crushed grains do not yield very good efficiency.

Secondly, pH is unlikely to be a problem due to the incredible buffering power of the mash. Acidulated malt will take it down a couple of points but after that, the buffering will take over and any more acidulated malt will have a zero affect except to make your beer taste like lactic acid.

If the wheat malt was malted, you should not have a problem

What is the water you have settled on over the years? Keeping in mind Wall (the OP) didn't use any acidulated malt and has Perth water. Have you brewed with Perth water before?

What is your carbonate level like Wall?

 

[mofox1]

Maris Otter for example has short fat grains while most Aussie grains are longer and thinner. Uncrushed or poorly crushed grains do not yield very good efficiency.

And never again will I crush Briess Midnight Wheat at the same setting as T/F Maris Otter. Derp.

I reckon at the crush I had for the MO, the MW could have just dropped through without touching the sides.

 

[Wall]

I'm not sure what the carbonate levels of my water is, I test the pH to add to my aquaponics so am familiar with that aspect but other than that it's just the wet stuff comes out of the tap.
The water report I found online for my area (Melville Supply) seemed to be 9/10 useless, variations were huge so didn't really seem to help me much.
I can probably dig it up though if anyone with more idea is interested.

I'm not inclined to get my water tested at this stage as I'm due to move house in a few months so may well end up in the next supply area with a new set of water anyway.
I probably should get a sample tested tho, probably time i started playing with brew water.
I'm considering getting an RO system but am a bit hesistant due to the large increase in the quantity of water needed to brew (correct me if i'm oversetimating the amount of lost water created by an RO filter)
How does one measure mash pH? Can't see my aquarium testubes with colour charts working on a stout mash....
I've looked briefly in LHBS and online but not sure what's the best option.

I suspect the gravity is a process issue somewhere, bad reading on a thermometer, scales, loss of attention somewhere along the line. Will test my thermometers and scales to cut that out of the picture.
Having said that, this is turning into an informative thread (for me at least) I've had to google, read and look up a few times to keep up and have learnt a fair bit more about grain and effect on mash pH.
I also understand now why I've been having more succes with browns and dark ales. Probably pulling my mash pH closer to the desired.
I've been told this would be the case but never found out why as I was still learning the basics.

Crush was ok I think, quite fine as i'm BIAB and find that my clarity is still good but efficiency better with the finer crush.
Wheat was malted. My efficiency is usually around 80% which i've been more than happy with (overjoyed the first time I used my pump).
But maybe one of the issues here is that I needed to change my crush for the new malt.

It comes out of the fermenter tomorrow so I'll see how she brewed out.
If it tastes as good coming out as it did going in I will brew that same batch again and see if get the same issues (kind of want a bit of this style for summer anyway).

This is all a hell of a lot of fun but worlds away from letting some water sit to deal with the chlorine to boil up a bit of extract.
So much to learn....

 

[Dunkelbrau]

I've had a few beers so I wont go into anything other than the RO.

My RO system uses 2.25L per litre of 000TDS water, so 1:1.25 DI:Waste, I just put the waste water into the garden, but you can collect it, or add an extra membrane and increase the efficiency of the system.

I wouldn't go back, getting super clean balanced water with no chemicals for those styles where you need next to no mineral profile in there is incomparable, and makes that final difference to brews.

That said, its a big learning curve and you need to have your shit together in pretty much every other aspect to get the real benefit of an RO system. If you can't produce good beer from your local water with salts, then an RO rig won't help (unless water is your problem in the first place).

 

[Adr_0]

Wall, if you're going to brew the same recipe why don't you add 3% acidulated malt and see if it helps? What's the worst thatccan happen?

 

[Wall]

That's actually a really good suggestion Adro. I'll have a side by side test with a single variable change (roughly) and like you say it's only you going to wind up with a difference in taste rather than a disaster.
Any difference could possibly say a lot

 

[Wall]

There's probably a dozen other areas I need to get my shit together with first dunkelbrau
1:1.25 isn't terrible. I could use the waste water to cool (run a small pump out of a large esky of ice water through my chiller) so would prob wind up roughly even with water use at the end of the day.

Using RO water would surely simplify things tho?
I'd be building a water profile by adding ingredients to clean water much the same as you add ingredients to the grain bill or hops to the wort?
Sort of a case of building the most suitable water for your grain bill.

Or am I oversimplifying things?

 

[Dunkelbrau]

I'd recommend working out the kinds of beer that best suit your water and brewing those, maybe adding salts to make certain styles but not buying RO until you understand the water chemistry.

Anyone can use a calculator to adjust to a premade water profile, but in my mind there isn't any point unless you truely understand the effect of all the different salts on the final beer.

If its just PH adjustment, use sauermalt for pale beers and darker malts and grains for darker beers. Just get a decent PH meter first.

 

[Adr_0]

Had any luck with your water and pH Wall?

 

[Wall]

I have Adr_0.
Brewed the same batch again, but added 2% acidulated malt.
Mash was much quicker to get to the same pre boil gravity

Have it in the keg now and tastes as good as the last, little young but curiosity got the better of me.
I'm going to hook it up again next week after force carb has settled out and its aged another week and see if any significant taste difference.

I am now the proud owner of a Ph meter tho, should be in the mail before my next batch. Will start monitoring mash Ph.

 

[Wall]

Mind you next batch is a Russian Imperial with a lot of dark grain tho so the high Ph may not be such an issue. Recipe suggests to aim for 5.4 in the mash.

Ph Meter Will give me another bit of info to help fine tune the next batch if there's issues tho.

 

[Adr_0]

Awesome, good to hear - that it made a difference and that you have a pH meter.

I often use 2-4% acidulated malt, generally on the higher end with a wheat. I would say 'maybe' that you can start to taste it, but the yeast I usually use (3333) is a bit tart anyway, and it suits the style to be a touch tart. I would say it's a definite 'maybe' that you can taste it but is more than likely just my imagination and the yeast if anything.

The reason I use it with a wheat is I don't want to change my water profile for a wheat beer, while other beers (e.g. pale ale) I can throw gypsum in, or a mix of acidulated malt and gypsum (e.g. German pils).

I generally buy 1kg of acidulated malt at a time, and just throw in 50-200g depending on %, style and batch size. One of the more essential specialty malts IMO.