Ph Testing

[Online Brewing Supplies]

So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?

Batz

No never used it and I dont need it.I have other ways of doing the same thing.But if some one sends me some I will give it a go and let you know.
GB

 

[Batz]

No never used it and I dont need it.I have other ways of doing the same thing.But if some one sends me some I will give it a go and let you know.
GB

Someone is sending me some So I'll let you know.

Batz

 

[Jye]

Sorry PP, I have to disagree with you here.

Whilst the info posted in this thread is good, I feel Palmer is the be-all and end-all of brewing pH. Residual alkalinity is where it's at and he's the only popular brewing author to cover it properly.

I probably agree with you that Palmer's material isn't suitable for beginners but neither is dicking with your mash pH. Forget about mash pH if you are a beginner, you'll know when you need to learn about it. When you get to that stage, read Palmer.

+1 Water chemistry is the last thing any mash should be learning and when you do you might as well learn it properly. This isnt a chapter you can just flick over and learn by osmosis, you will have to read it 3 or 4 time and then do some practice examples. It gets easier when you use beersmith to perform some of the calculations and the nomograph becomes second nature after a couple of goes.

P.S. Even Nev couldn't see a problem with BIAB apart from not re-circulating your wort which is something that only fly-sparging will do so there you go you old son!!! And there are disadvantages to re-circulating if your pH and temp aren't right - so there

Pat why cant you recirc with batch sparging? and what are these disadvantages of recirculating?

So who uses that 5.2 stuff?
And if you do have you done readings before and after adding it?

Batz Ive used if for a while and it works great and as kook said you dont need the recommended amount. I use 5g per 21L batch.

 

[randyrob]

Hey Guys,

i've finally invested in a PH Meter and used it in a recent brew i did here are my results:

Carbon Filtered Tap Water PH= 7.5

Mash PH = 5.4 (this was 100% Pilsner Malt @ 1050, pretty good starting point i thought)

now i know in an ideal world the Mash PH should be 5.2

so is a 0.2 Higher PH a cause for concern?

i'll be looking foward to trying it in my usual brews as well as a few darker ones i have lined up before i start adjusting my PH.

i've got plenty of Accidulated Malt as well as some 5.2 in the cupboard just wanna see what i'm up against before i start fiddling!

Also Checked a couple of beers i have on tap:

APA PH= 4.45

Summer Ale PH= 4.37

Rob.

 

[goatherder]

5.4 is OK Rob. According to Palmer, the mash pH should be between 5.4 and 5.7 when measured at room temp which translates to 5.1-5.4 at mash temps. It seems your water is fairly soft to get this result from 100% pils, that's a good thing to have. You will probably hit this range with everything but very pale or very dark beers.

 

[Kai]

5.2 is fine and dandy. Interesting to see your numbers too, would love to dip your probe in a few mashes with 3-5% acid malt.

 

[randyrob]

would love to dip your probe in a few mashes with 3-5% acid malt.

no probs mate it can be arranged

 

[lespaul]

Ive had some concerns with mash pH after doing some more calculations on water additions. I have been using the kaiser spreadsheet which doesnt show the pH of the thin mashes seen in BIAB. It says that even with the addition of CaSO4 and CaCl2 to the point of around 80ppm Ca (6g of each) it only has a pH shift of -0.09.

My concern is with the pH of the thinner Biab mashes, where the larger mass of water is going to have a higher buffering effect. Also in the last couple of light lagers ive done, the colour has been higher than anticipated, so im not sure if its the pH in the mailard reaction increasing the colour of the beer.

I still havent tested the pH of my wort (the dogs managed to find my cheap pH meter before i got to use it), but before i go testing what should i be using to lower the pH? and roughly how much would i need to put in to reduce the pH? I get that its a logarithmic scale and everything although just a rough guide would be nice. I have some citric acid there but im not sure how much to put in and how it would affect the taste.

Cheers

 

[Wolfy]

I still havent tested the pH of my wort (the dogs managed to find my cheap pH meter before i got to use it), but before i go testing what should i be using to lower the pH? and roughly how much would i need to put in to reduce the pH? I get that its a logarithmic scale and everything although just a rough guide would be nice. I have some citric acid there but im not sure how much to put in and how it would affect the taste.

I'm not sure you should be using anything to lower the pH of your mash before you actually test it.
Water-calculation-spreadsheets can provide an estimate of what to expect but they can't replace actual testing, which may show results that are quite different to that predicted.
(Then there is debate over which formula and spreadsheets are actually 'correct', and more debate about the buffering that occurs within the mash and if that can actually be calculated etc).
A rough guide would be a few ml of lactic or hydrochloric liquid acids, or a few grams of citric acid in powder form.
However, if you are worried about the pH and don't want or cannot measure it, using the 5.2 buffering powder would be a good option.

 

[manticle]

Agree with Wolfy - why add anything to drop pH if you don't know what the pH is?

I would either add nothing till you know or just add some salts for flavour (calcium chloride and calcium sulphate depending on hop/malt balance).

 

[gone_fishing]

Agree too. Malt is well buffered and slightly acidic. Most mashes should fall into the correct range with little or no additions.
gf

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Never heard of using Hydrochloric acid to adjust PH in brewing?

However, once you know your PH and if you need to drop it, food grade Phosphoric acid is very cheap and effective.
Its also quite safe.

You can dilute it to your desired strength with distilled water prior to use to make adjustments even easier.
Always add acid to the body of water, never the other way around.

 

[gone_fishing]

If you decide to go the phosphoric acid route just ensure that it is food grade.
Concentrated phosporic acid will rip your skin off very quickly and a splash in your eye means almost certain instant blindness.
Adding chemicals to beer doesn't necessarily improve it.
If you think your beer is not as good as you would like, ensuring that your brewing process is sound should alsways be the first step.
gf

 

[katzke]

I am using Palmers sheet version 2.3 and other then WITs I get the predicted results. I BIAB and have never even thought of the difference.

I do a full style specific pH and taste addition at the beginning. Have never had any issues with the expected pH and have only once added a few drops of acid (that was in the beginning and I most likely messed up the recipe). I have never had any issues with dissolving the additions as with BIAB you mash and boil in the same vessel.

I think most people, because they do not understand what is happening, make water much more difficult then it needs to be. Go read Designing Great Beers and look in the back for suggested water profiles for the different styles you brew. Experiment and see what you like. Follow the sulfate/chloride ratios and you will have a good place to start. Ignore any reports of historical brewing water. Most if not all of them are wrong.

And yes you need to know what is in the water you are brewing with and be able to test the pH of the mash. I use the cheep test strips and they get me close enough for success. I would not trust a cheep pH meter any more then I would trust a cheep mash thermometer.

 

[lespaul]

no, i dont think i explained that too well. WHEN i test the pH how much should i add of whatever to bring the pH down, rather than add too much and blow it.

Also, does citric acid affect the taste of a brew?

Also ive read designing great beers, and palmers, and that one on wikipedia and a few others. The reason i ask is that i was thinking with BIAB and the additional amount of water that is used in the mash, as well as the relatively small pH shift from the salts ive been adding (predicted .09), that i might need to be using something more to bring the pH down. As i mentioned ive been getting darker beers from my light lagers, and im just going through some of the causes it might be. I dont really care about the colour but at the end of it i might end up with a better tasting beer.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

The answer to your question is not as simple as you would like.

Malts affect the pH as they have a buffering effect. Dark malts are more acidifying than light. Therefore the grain bill will affect the overall pH and subsequently any additions.
Temporary and permanent hardness of your water will also affect pH. Carbonates have a buffering effect and will resist acidification - thus influencing how much of anything you need to add. No-one can tell you how much to add without knowing these things (and I guarantee every answer will be different anyway).

Too much citric acid or calcium salts will affect flavour - maybe more so than not adjusting at all.

That's why I advise adding salts first and foremost for flavour and enzyme activity. Add 2 grams of calcium sulphate and 2 grams of calcium chloride to the mash and the same to the boil of your next mid coloured brew (presuming single batch). If you like what the result is then start measuring pH, get a copy of your water profile and start calculating how far off your pH is.

 

[katzke]

no, i dont think i explained that too well. WHEN i test the pH how much should i add of whatever to bring the pH down, rather than add too much and blow it.

Also, does citric acid affect the taste of a brew?

Also ive read designing great beers, and palmers, and that one on wikipedia and a few others. The reason i ask is that i was thinking with BIAB and the additional amount of water that is used in the mash, as well as the relatively small pH shift from the salts ive been adding (predicted .09), that i might need to be using something more to bring the pH down. As i mentioned ive been getting darker beers from my light lagers, and im just going through some of the causes it might be. I dont really care about the colour but at the end of it i might end up with a better tasting beer.

Cheers

Follow the calculator you are using. If you find it does not work then try a different one.

As to how much acid to add? I have water very similar to most all the water I have read about in OZ. I have never had to add acid to a light colored beer. It could be you have unusual water. It could be you are not adding the correct salts. It could be you are not using the calculator correctly. It could even be that you are brewing a beer I have never brewed.

If you do need to add acid it is drops. A few drops then wait a bit before testing, and repeat until you get the expected results. It is much easier to lower the pH then raise it. So go easy with acid. Yes drops. I have a glass eye dropper.

Why not post your recipe, your water profile, and the salts you are adding. Then we can let you know what might be the problem.

 

[katzke]

That's why I advise adding salts first and foremost for flavour and enzyme activity. Add 2 grams of calcium sulphate and 2 grams of calcium chloride to the mash and the same to the boil of your next mid coloured brew (presuming single batch). If you like what the result is then start measuring pH, get a copy of your water profile and start calculating how far off your pH is.

A mid colored malty brew or a mid colored hoppy brew?

That is why I do not like blind additions. Additions should be made for a reason.

 

[manticle]

A mid coloured balanced brew. For hops push chloride addition down by a gram and or sulphate up. For malt go the other way.

I don't like blind additions either but a small conservative addition to discern the effect on flavour is better than willy nilly throwing citric acid all over the place.

My original point was exactly that - recipe and source water will affect the pH so no-one can suggest an addition to correct pH until they know what you are brewing. Calcium salts affect flavour as well as pH and may be added solely for that reason. Add a bit, see what difference (if any) you think it makes or else just leave it alone.

You're right though. Without knowing calcium levels etc, even those small additions are flying in the dark.

 

[lespaul]

Yeah, probably too vague a question. Ive been using roughly 3g into the mash and 3g into the boil of either CaCl2 or CaSO4 or a mix depending on the beer. In the kaiser calculator it seems to suggest i would need 8g into the mash for the minimum of 50ppm Ca (with a -.05 pH shift). So i might get some pH strips, add 8-10g into the mash and see how it turns out and add some citric acid from there.
nobody really mentioned anything about the properties of a thin mash either, which was the reason i thought there might be a problem in the pH. I suppose the best way to work it out regardless is to give it a crack and see from the results.
water profile im working off is: Ca 2.9 Mg 1.1 Na 4.7 SO4 .09 Cl 6.0 HCO3 13.6
Cheers