PH Mash Adjustments

[RelaxedBrewer]

Relaxed - read my first post in the thread for an attempted simplification. What texts have you been reading?

I have been reading How to Brew and German Brewing science (Braukaiser).
I did a bit more reading after I posted last night (the section I read on braukaiser actually covered a lot of my questions). I think I have a better handle on it now.
I will do some more reading over the next week or so, I might have some more questions then.
Do you have any more recommended reading on the subject? (I will check out the brunwater site and thread you linked as well)
I should probably try to find a brew strong episode on water as well.

RB

 

[Pickaxe]

Thanks guys,

Ive emailed my water supplier.

Man, have I opened a can of worms or what?

 

[GalBrew]

Thanks guys,

Ive emailed my water supplier.

Man, have I opened a can of worms or what?

Kind of, but you will find the EZ calc works quite nicely if you have got all the details for your water and don't go overboard with the salt additions, just stay withing the ranges on the sheet while you work things out.

 

[manticle]

I have been reading How to Brew and German Brewing science (Braukaiser). I did a bit more reading after I posted last night (the section I read on braukaiser actually covered a lot of my questions). I think I have a better handle on it now. I will do some more reading over the next week or so, I might have some more questions then.Do you have any more recommended reading on the subject? (I will check out the brunwater site and thread you linked as well)I should probably try to find a brew strong episode on water as well. RB

The article I wrote has my sources at the end. Typing on a phone so I won't list here. Brungard's water knowledge page is a good one too.

 

[Pickaxe]

Seems my local water supplier do not test for sodium, calcium or mangnesium levels,.. or at least, that's what the bitch on the phone told me. Feels like a brush off, but anyway.

Any suggestions on how to proceed given I don't know the calcium or magnesium levels? Sodium levels are claimed on the website to sit comfortably between 20-50ppm, so that doesn't seem like an issue. Can i test for this shit myself? I mean, I dont want a degree in water chem, just want to improve beer and learn a little.

Seems like if i aim to get my calcium and sulfate to 100ppm each, would I be going far wrong, while making sure my mash ph is in optimal zone?
Sulfate levels I have, so that would put me at 140ppm, and if my water is anything like Melbourne's which is said to be calcium deficient, should I be on the right track? I figure a 100ppm add of calcium is not going to push me out of tolerance ranges.


http://www.unitywater.com/media/scripts/doc_download.aspx?did=727

Page 29 is my areas water report.

 

[CosmicBertie]

In fear of upsetting the TNR Brigade (Thats Not Right!)....

I put approx 7g of Calcium Chloride and 2.5ml of lactic acid in my water, and that brings my mash pH down to 5.4. For lagers, I'll go a bit more (3 - 3.5ml) to aim for 5.2. If its a hoppy beer, then i'll also add 7g of Calcium Sulphate to help bolster the hop flavours.

Like most things with homebrewing, you go from not caring about water additions, to being completely anal about them, then you come out the other side with a happy medium.

 

[Pickaxe]

And have you seen a dramatic difference in beer quality and flavour CB?

 

[manticle]

Email the company. I highly doubt they don't test for those minerals.
Explain what it is for.

 

[losp]

What sort of an effect does water ph have on mash ph and overall beer flavour?

The EZwater calculator tool thingy, doesn't appear to take into account water ph. I figure if I am going to be using 40L of water for a batch, it has got to make some effect?

On a somewhat related question (sorry to hijack the thread):
On Brewing salt editions, should I be doing this during the mash only? What about sparging time?
Is changing say, the calcium ratio something that might improve the brew because of how it behaves in the mash? Or because of what may happen during fermentation?

 

[GalBrew]

What sort of an effect does water ph have on mash ph and overall beer flavour?

The EZwater calculator tool thingy, doesn't appear to take into account water ph. I figure if I am going to be using 40L of water for a batch, it has got to make some effect?

On a somewhat related question (sorry to hijack the thread):
On Brewing salt editions, should I be doing this during the mash only? What about sparging time?
Is changing say, the calcium ratio something that might improve the brew because of how it behaves in the mash? Or because of what may happen during fermentation?

I was under the impression you only adjust mash not sparge water (unless your water is highly alkaline). I have read that increasing calcium to at least 50ppm can aid in conversion during the mash and assist in yeast floccing.

 

[Pickaxe]

Email the company. I highly doubt they don't test for those minerals.
Explain what it is for.

I had emailed them, then the grumpy woman called me and said if they test for it, it's on the report. Brick wall there.

 

[CosmicBertie]

And have you seen a dramatic difference in beer quality and flavour CB?

Dramatic? Are you saying I made shit beer before I started making water additions?

IMHO, making water additions is so that you can brew to a certain style of beer, ie you're trying to emulate the water profile for a given area.

I believe my water additions helped my English Ales taste more authentic. Without the additions, I still made good beer. However, if you've never had a pint of Black Sheep Special, Theakstons XXXB or Old Perculiar then how would you know what you're trying to emulate?

My advice would be to check your water pH. Then check your mash pH. As specified earlier by Manticle, different grains alter the pH by different amounts, so you would be better off brewing the same beer twice. Once you know roughly how much your grain bill alters your mash pH, start by adding 7g (or a good teaspoonful) of calcium chloride to your water and check the pH once you've doughed-in. If you're around 5.5, then cool. If not then calculate how much the 7g dropped it by and make further additions next time. Its a learning curve, but at least you'll make beer.

 

[CosmicBertie]

What sort of an effect does water ph have on mash ph and overall beer flavour?

The EZwater calculator tool thingy, doesn't appear to take into account water ph. I figure if I am going to be using 40L of water for a batch, it has got to make some effect?

On a somewhat related question (sorry to hijack the thread):
On Brewing salt editions, should I be doing this during the mash only? What about sparging time?
Is changing say, the calcium ratio something that might improve the brew because of how it behaves in the mash? Or because of what may happen during fermentation?

Water has a pH value. Out of the tap, mine used to be 7.2. As Manticle has pointed out, grains alter pH, with darker grains being more acidic. After mashing-in, my pH used to drop to around 6.4. I then used lactic acid and calcium chloride to further lower this to around 5.5.

I only used to add additions to my mash water, and not to my dunk sparge water. Mainly because I used to forget

I believe calcium additions improves the brew due to the mash. Others may think differently.

 

[losp]

Water has a pH value. Out of the tap, mine used to be 7.2. As Manticle has pointed out, grains alter pH, with darker grains being more acidic. After mashing-in, my pH used to drop to around 6.4. I then used lactic acid and calcium chloride to further lower this to around 5.5.

I only used to add additions to my mash water, and not to my dunk sparge water. Mainly because I used to forget

I believe calcium additions improves the brew due to the mash. Others may think differently.

I'm not sure what my water ph is. I was thinking it was around 7 (as this is the data i have seen) but measuring it myself with ph strips (i know...) suggests that it may be around 5.5 - 6. So i have sent it off to get a sample. I am hoping to receive the data today for this weekends brew.

I ll have a play around this weekend with the mash only.

 

[manticle]

I had emailed them, then the grumpy woman called me and said if they test for it, it's on the report. Brick wall there.

Wow. What's the water company?

 

[manticle]

And have you seen a dramatic difference in beer quality and flavour CB?

If your water is good (either slightly soft or slightly hard -and CB is on a soft Melbourne water supply) you probably won't notice a dramatic difference and better not enough than too much in terms of minerals and pH. However you should notice a difference in hop profile and malt profile, get better mash efficiency, good break formation and an overall healthier ferment id you get your pH and mineral levels right. It's a way of tweaking and the effects on flavour of various salts will make a discernible difference.

If you're water is very hard or minerally or highly alkaline, you may struggle to make the beers you want - in this case adjusting pH etc can have a quite dramatic difference especially if you are trying to brew delicate pilsners. If your water is chloraminated you may have further issues.

Even with soft water, I notice gypsum makes hop profiles more pronounced and less muddy. Think of the difference in flavour when subtle salt additions are added to a dish versus unseasoned.

Zinc is included in good quality beer yeast nutrients.

 

[Pickaxe]

Unity water are my water company. Got some bitch on reception, thought I was getting too big for my boots is my guess. Funny, I was going to point out that for one suburb they had Sodium results, but for mine they did not. Tells me they test for Sodium. They are required to.

Anyway, might give a small adjustment a go: If i do have a decent calcium level in my water, what will going over 150ppm do?

 

[manticle]

Hey Pickaxe - in your other water thread, I linked the thread that has loads of various water profiles around the nation, including various sunshine coast ones. You may find what you are looking for there.

It's unfortunate that you have been met with such impoliteness fromt he employee. When I've emailed Melbourne water they've only been helpful. I know someone who used to be quite high up in SEQ water so though I might be able to help but not sure how the districts are worked out up your way.

 

[Pickaxe]

Thanks manticle. I thought about lodging a right to information query to the water company, then they HAVE to provide information, but the info you posted has helped.

From close by water supplirs there is high caco3, but low calcium ions, about 30ish ppm, and low sulphate. Will give higher mash ph. So I got some salts and lactic acid. Will try next brew.

Question - anyone know where to get ph test strips close to home. Chemist don't stock them. Suggested to try pool shop or bynnings. Any suggestions?

 

[manticle]

Probably craftbrewer.
Grain and grape stock them and postage would be minimal. Any hb store that focuses on AG. Ebay.