Perception

[speedie]

Here is a proposition for all of you astute brewers

There has been some discussion on liquid versus powered yeast

Two row v six malt

Ale v pilsner malt

Hop v hop

I put this to you astute brewers and beer judges

Brew three beers using the same malt bill and brew schedule

Change the yeast in each brew smack pack powder whatever maintain similar strain ale for ale etc

Let the ferment run its course condition the brews keg and get ready for tasting

Now heres the rub dont tell your buddies what is what even better get some one to be totally independent and serve the beer

I bet my aggotts that there would be less than 15% of the tasters get one yeast strain indentified from the others

Thats being generous

enigma



blast that roman font shit

 

[felten]

What if I don't have any friends?

 

[bum]

You're already living proof that most people don't know what they are talking about, speedie. What do you think this will prove?

Most people like VB. I'll stop brewing IPAs.

 

[speedie]

As George says I drink alone

 

[Boondy]

I think the important question is will I be able to taste the difference in my beer.
I think the answer is yes, but that might be just because I know the yeast is different...
Doesn't matter in the end. Comes down to what I think about my beer, the enjoyment I get from brewing and drinking it.

 

[speedie]

What I am expressing is that there is a vast difference in peoples perception of what tastes good through the power of expectation

Phuck just read any judges reports on a particular beer and man do they vary

So if we are all the same drink VB

And let the media coheres us ever closer too beer nirvana

As nike says just do it!

 

[bum]

What I am expressing is that there is a vast difference in peoples perception of what tastes good through the power of expectation

Is that really your entire justification for only using dried yeast? You think liquid yeast is magic and should be burned as a witch?

Different yeasts do taste different. Some subtly so. Some dramatically. Some people might not be able to tell in either case. None of this is news. What is this thread for?

 

[speedie]

boondy
you missed my point
it is not for you to know what your beer tastes like because you dont know which beer is yours! in front of you
ie you pick from three different glasses
and say without hesitation that is my freaking beer there!
the one with us 05 three step etc etc

 

[Fourstar]

I bet my aggotts that there would be less than 15% of the tasters get one yeast strain indentified from the others[/size]

Personally i'd like to know how you came up with < 15%.

 

[bum]

Personally I'd like to know who might be keen to find themselves as the new owners of speedie's "aggotts"[sic].

 

[speedie]

85 % sheep aggottless

 

[kenlock]

Ignoring the grandstanding font.....

Today I had a colleague ask about the yeast used in steam beer, so as I've got them interested understanding the differences in beer that wouldn't be an outrageous suggestion.

Obviously, you would want to use yeast which are distinctly different in profile.

It would certainly help to educate the masses.

Cheers Ken

 

[JestersDarts]

speedie -
I dont think you have to go to all that effort to try to 'prove' that a minority of the population are super-perceptive with their taste. Your taste may not be up to the task of discerning these differences, so you taste 5 different beers and may say
"so what? whats all this fuss about yeast strains, malt & hops"
becuase you can't actually taste the difference. Or, to you, there is no difference.

Also, I think it is more like a quarter of the population are what is known as "super-tasters". I wish I was a super-taster.. maybe I am.. who knows!

 

[Fourstar]

Also, I think it is more like a quarter of the population are what is known as "super-tasters". I wish I was a super-taster.. maybe I am.. who knows!

Also, just because you're a super tater doesnt always mean you will be better at flavour perception, you just taste at heightened levels.

On this topic and thing to note, typically super tasters do not like the taste of green bitter leaves or green leaf vegetables (and no, not ' i dont like it' but its ridiculously bitter. Like eating the most bitter tannic lettuce you have ever eaten, redicchio x 10). e.g. this would be things like rocket, silverbeet etc. If you have that trait, you're probabaly a super taster.

They are also more likely to give up on eating super rich foods laden with fat earlier than everyone else during a meal.

 

[Lecterfan]

Ahhhh good old first principles..."perception", the postulation of an "active" mind, the rationalist tradition of Descartes, Kant and all my homies.

But without descending into the uselessness of proving anything through perception (unless we accept certain empirical assumptions and move on with a logical postivist approach - which is of course completely valid and pragmatically to be applauded) I would bet mine or anyone elses aggotts that in a basic english pale ale most people could tell a difference between one brewed with 1084 and one brewed with 1056 and one brewed with yeast from under the lid of a coopers tin.

Now I'm not necassarily saying that I could swirl it around and tell you which was which, or even which one would be the "best" (a contentious and essentially redundant concept when invoking first principles such as perception); but the difference in the finish and aroma of the three would be easily picked as being different by anyone who cared to taste the beer rather than just slam it down in an attempt to get drunk quickly.

Having said that, there are a myriad of yeast strains that I'm sure I couldn't pick the difference between and couldn't pick them out of a blind testing line up if I tried. But I'm pretty comfy with the idea of blind testing knowing that it was between the three strains listed above...reasonably confident that my aggotts would remain safely attached in their handsome and functional housing.

 

[Ronin]

There has been some discussion on liquid versus powered yeast

So are you seriously saying there's no taste difference between, say, Wy1469 and Wy1056 (or whatever the dry equivalent is)? Or Wy1028? Or Wy1214?

I can understand saying there's little difference between Wy1272 and Wy1056, but there is without a shadow of a doubt a difference in the others.

I'm not saying that if you gave beers brewed with the different yeast to people without telling them they were different they would notice (although in the case of 1469 and 1056 I think they would). But if you did a triangular blind taste test and the person was looking for a difference, they would pick them.

Two row v six malt

Ale v pilsner malt

This one I almost agree with you on, depending on the malt. I've brewed beers with lots of different malts, and I found little difference between BB ale malt and a pilsner malt. Some of the other malts have a little more character though, marris otter and halcyon should be able to be picked in a blind taste test by some (read some) people.

Hop v hop

Again, are you seriously saying that there's no difference between Cascade and East Kent Goldings? Between Chinook and Hallertau? Between Galaxy and Northern Brewer?

It's even possible to taste the difference between Cascade, Amarillo, and Galaxy.

You are just plain wrong about hops.

You could almost argue that there's no difference between malts, the differences are more subtle (although I still believe that you can pick the difference). The character derived from yeast and hops is not subtle. Not at all.

Here's my point:

If there's no percievable flavour differences based on the ingredients of the beer...why are there so many beers out there that taste different? Why don't all light coloured beers tasted the same? Why don't all dark beers taste the same?

If they do all taste the same to you...you have my commiserations. You are missing out on soooo much.

James

 

[Brad Churchill]

True most people aren't beer connoisseurs and even those of us who think we are probably aren't. :lol:
But their is no disputing that if you want to change the flavour of your beer or enhance different flavours then using a different yeast strain is one of the options at your disposal. Try chucking some champagne yeast in a brew of no chill until some wild yeast strain muscles in and starts munching on your brew (nothing wrong with no chilling, I think you know what I am mean though) I think even my wife could tell the difference then..... :icon_vomit:

I play with the grain first, then the hops, then the yeast to come up with the beer that I want.

I think that what you have proposed however is a great idea when you are experimenting though.
Split the brew in half through one yeast in one and another in the other and see the difference...

Or in fact make a brew exactly the same but completely change the hop profile.

Cheers

 

[earle]

Here is a proposition for all of you astute brewers

There has been some discussion on liquid versus powered yeast

Two row v six malt

Ale v pilsner malt

Hop v hop

I put this to you astute brewers and beer judges

Brew three beers using the same malt bill and brew schedule

Change the yeast in each brew smack pack powder whatever maintain similar strain ale for ale etc

Let the ferment run its course condition the brews keg and get ready for tasting

Now heres the rub don't tell your buddies what is what even better get some one to be totally independent and serve the beer

I bet my aggotts that there would be less than 15% of the tasters get one yeast strain indentified from the others

That's being generous

enigma



blast that roman font shit

Here's a proposition for you speedie. Instead of just crapping on about it, put your malt where your mouth is and do the experiement yourself. Bribie is doing just this with finings and reporting the results, much more informative than random ramblings.

 

[jonocarroll]

boondy
you missed my point
it is not for you to know what your beer tastes like because you dont know which beer is yours! in front of you
ie you pick from three different glasses
and say without hesitation that is my freaking beer there!
the one with us 05 three step etc etc

So what you're advocating here is that less than 15% of people (general public or brewers?) can pass a triangle test tasting.

If you're questioning whether or not brewers can do this for ANY two beers - you're definitely a moron, and furthermore, I suspect you have no taste buds.
If you're questioning whether or not brewers can do this for ANY two SIMILAR beers - you're definitely a moron, and have ignored the many times people have tweaked their recipes.
If you're questioning whether or not brewers can do this for two similar beers, differing only in one subtle aspect - you're still a moron, but you've proven nothing apart from some aspects don't dramatically affect a beer.
If you're questioning whether or not the general public can do this for anything less subtle than small adjustments, you would probably be surprised. And you're a moron.

If you've never done two 'Single Malt and Single Hop' (SMaSH) beers with two different hops (yes, I've done several - have you?) then by all means, do one and see for yourself. Don't assume that no-one else ever has.

Just to be clear, if you think that there is no difference between ANY two hops, two yeasts, two malts, two water chemistrys, then you are a moron, and please...

Some interesting references, since I'm sure you think you've thought of something groundbreaking...

http://pubs.acs.org/isbn/9780841203785
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=iQ2cbx...eer&f=false
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2986779

 

[drsmurto]

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