Paulaner Oktoberfest??

[labels]

Yes, down my local Community Club tonight and I drank a Hofbrau original at 5.1% abv and a Hofbrau Oktoberfest at 6.3% abv. Now both these beers were noticably lighter in colour than what the others were drinking which was Carlton, West End Draught and Super Dry.

Both are super malty of course and with a medium-heavy body. Flavour profile can be described as sweet pilsner malt but finishes dry. No noticable hops, just enough bitterness to balance the sweetness of the malt, there was a feint hop floral spicyness but not much. Fully attenauted, both these beers are malt showcases where hops comes way down the list. The yeast is unknown but all yeasts leave a trademark flavour profile and whatever they used definitely accentuated the malt.. Hofbrau original is technically (BJCP) a Munich Helles and their Oktoberfest has a flavour profile which is very similar but stronger.

Hence my take on German lagers being almost 100% pils malt and complex mashing schedule. Time will reward you.

 

[Jack of all biers]

It is worth noting here that we seem to be getting input for two different styles of beer here.
If @laxation drank what I think that he/she did, then a lot of the above suggestions will NOT get him/her what they want.

Probably because the original OP link was for a Octoberfest Maerzen recipe. This is why I included both in my description above to show that there are two and there was no way to tell which Laxation meant. Now we know.

Laxation, the traditional Maerzen is the one that used to get served at the festival, before the lighter Helles (and much tastier Edelstall) started to dominate the Munich market, which led to a progressively lighter beer served at the Oktoberfest, hence the more modern version that is lighter and served only since the 1990's. The Wies'n is the German name for the beer Goatchop (and BJCP) have termed Festbier and right under the line Goatchop quoted, I gave my estimate (guesstimate really) of the Oktoberfest Wies'n.

The Wies'n is likely to have anywhere between 10-20% Munich malt, but likely on the lower end and only light Munich, with the rest as Pilsner.

These lighter Oktoberfest beers are cheaper to produce than the traditional Maerzen, as lager times are no where near the same and less time in conditioning vessels means more beer/profits. Call me cynical, but the original Maerzen (traditionally only first tapped at the Oktoberfest) has been commercially superceded as much for commercial reasons as for demand from the consumer.

So now to the BJCP take on the two Oktoberfest beers - Maerzen - Amber-orange to deep reddish-copper color; should not be golden. Festbier - Deep yellow to deep gold color; should not have amber hues. Note that the picture on that website shows the modern Paulaner Oktoberfest Bier pictured on the Maerzen guidelines and they list it as a commercial example of the Maerzen style (a mistake surely!).

On a side note; Wies'n is a slang word in German for Wiese, or meadow. It is a shortening for the Theresienwiese (or Princess Theresa's Meadow - who was the bride the celebrations were originally about). The Theresienwiese is the grounds in which the Oktoberfest occurs. This is why Paulaner call it their Oktoberfest Wies'n (the beer you only get [or used to only get] at the Wies'n). In Munich one says "Let's go to the Wies'n" not "Let's go to the Okotoberfest"

 

[labels]

These lighter Oktoberfest beers are cheaper to produce tha the traditional Maerzen, as lager times are no where near the same and less time in conditioning vessels means more beer/profits. Call me cynical, but the original Maerzen (traditionally only first tapped at the Oktoberfest) has been commercially superceded as much for commercial reasons as for demand from the consumer.
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I have to say I struggle with this statement. Assuming you mean 'lighter beers' are lighter in colour rather than a lower ABV, I can't see that a beer will take any longer to 'lager' with or without darker malts such as Munich or Vienna - a requirement for Marzen style beers. In fact I would have thought that lagering times were a lot more dependent on OG rather than malt choices, especially the ones used in Marzen (Munich and Vienna) which are diastatic malts.

 

[manticle]

Yeah I'd be leaning towards what MHB and labels say - get the maltiness from a 1.060 starting gravity, 90min boil - which you've planned - and a suitable yeast. S-189 might be fine, but 50g is probably a better amount - or two packs in a couple of starters.

Malt wise, ditch the cara-pils. I think an Oktoberfest would be nice with some Munich, but the extra weight of pils will darken the beer - so perhaps 10 or 15% Munich is suitable but not more than that.

Which pils malt are you going to use? I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but I'm not sure that the no-chill method will give you the delicate hops flavour - might get too coarse.

I don't think you'd get flamed but I think in this case, fwh with nobles and small, whirlpool additions will give similar results with chill/nc. Hop is a delicate character with this kind of beer, not a face strangler most people seem to expect these days so nc can work well.

Priorities are yeast, ferment schedule and lower but still important, grain choice and mash schedule. Mash/wort/beer pH an important detail, hop schedule is the fine furnishing.

Perfect lager needs to touch every base.

 

[goatchop41]

I don't think you'd get flamed but I think in this case, fwh with nobles and small, whirlpool additions will give similar results with chill/nc. Hop is a delicate character with this kind of beer, not a face strangler most people seem to expect these days so nc can work well.

Priorities are yeast, ferment schedule and lower but still important, grain choice and mash schedule. Mash/wort/beer pH an impirtant detail, hop schedule is the fine furnishing.

Perfect lager needs to touch every base.

Could also do a 5 minute mini boil/Argon method for the late hops if one was concerned about maintaining some late boil noble hop character

 

[Jack of all biers]

I have to say I struggle with this statement. Assuming you mean 'lighter beers' are lighter in colour rather than a lower ABV, I can't see that a beer will take any longer to 'lager' with or without darker malts such as Munich or Vienna - a requirement for Marzen style beers. In fact I would have thought that lagering times were a lot more dependent on OG rather than malt choices, especially the ones used in Marzen (Munich and Viennna) which are diastatic malts.

Nothing to do with the colour of the beer. You've miss-read my statement. It's not about the colour of the beer/types of malts, but the process that is undertaken to make the two different beers.

The Maerzen, by German tradition/definition is brewed in March and stored until the European Autumn (traditionally late September to ensure it was post harvest of various crops). The Germans (and especially the Bavarians) are a conservative lot and would not take to a Maerzen not being brewed to the traditional ways. This is the country that still has laws dictating the purity of beer, the % of extract in beer types (Oktoberfest is just one) and (until I was still living there in 2004) that fact that Weizen was not considered a beer allowing construction workers to be able to drink them on their lunch break! They have a committee in Munich that dictates what beers are allowed to be served at the Oktoberfest. They have their rules after all. Not just a stereotype in this situation. If you tried to serve a Maerzen that was not a Maerzen, you would be outed as a fake and the breweries reputation would be ruined. (this is not a joke. They really do take it that seriously).

The 'Festbier' is not constrained by the same traditions/rules that the Maerzen is regarding brewing periods and lagering time. It is generally lagered for usually 4-6 weeks (in Paulaner's case 4 weeks and given they invented the 'Festbier' in the 1970's, they laid the path), which on commercial scales saves lagering costs, vessels being tied up for a period of 5-6 months. Major cost saving. Again my statement had nothing to do with grain bill or colour of beer, just the process of making them in the modern commercial world.